DACs

Not at all George. It can be good from Itunes and very enjoyable yet still better in other ways. I've never made any either/or statements. In the past I've said Itunes as often used wasn't for me and still feel that way but it's a fine place to store music for networking or possibly a program like Amara. It's those that read that they may not have the best method that get a bit reactionary but it's clearly not what I'm looking for. At the end of the day, whatever gets you in front of your speakers etc. is what's right for you but that doesn't mean that there still aren't better ways to get higher performance. We choose where we want to be in this equation and disagree at times as I may disagree about some of these differences. I like every performance better when I more understand what the musician is saying. It's personal and there's no wrong answer. That I can enjoy my a 320 WMA file on my Sansa and Shures doesn't mean it's good enough all the time nor does a 555 CDP make the Sansa any worse than it is. We often speak in terms of absolute goodness here as in the DAC should absolutely be equally as good from any input souce (or it's broken )and we've already heard otherwise from some listeners though I suspect those differences are far smaller than before. People get defensive as I may about Naim but I truely believe what I right. I apologize if I've put you off but I didn't address you and certainly didn't have any intention of offending or make it personal for you. We may disagree on some things but I certainly would never presume to judge your level of listening pleasure or intentions. All the best and I mean that.

I think I'll take a bit of of a holiday from the board. Stay well all.

http://www.audioplus.org.uk/na...ro-spdif-jitter-dac/ and please excuse the grammar. Write not right. Must be Freudian. ttfn

Dear John [js],

You could not possibly offend me even if we may not agree on everyhting!

Please do not leave on my account!

Best wishes from George

George, all is well. It just seems to be heating up in general. I'm with AllenB and will wait a bit unless there is something posted to me directly.

quote:

Something about Naim have chosen a fixed number of frequencies which never perfectly match the frequency of the incoming data?

Doesn't matter whether the data decoding clock matches the incoming clock–as long as the fill/empty rate of the incoming DSP/RAM buffer remains within a reasonable range, without spikes or dips, then this shouldn't be an issue–straight mathematics.

DAC is on the street here in the US, and I'll have it with me at Goodwin's High End on Tuesday. Will also show it at RMAF with a 555PS.

quote:

Originally posted by Nathaniel:
Or perhaps it is, but Naim's fear is that comparisons between computer and <insert-expensive-naim-source-here> via the DAC will prove to be fairly even, curtailing cd-player and hdx sales faster than the business model would like.

My (uninformed) guess is that they're walking a fine marketing line--for the dac to sell really well, it must sound terrific with any digital source. But to maintain revenue streams from new cd-players and the hdx in the face of a threat from their own new product, they are attempting to position the dac as a complement to other naim products, not a replacement for them.

But Naim's problem is people like me--I want a good DAC to do away with all digital sources except a computer.

Your paranoia is unfounded–I carry a MacBook with optical out with me at all times. HDX is convenient as a one-box ripping / storage / playback solution, and clearly sounds better than a stock PC or Mac mini by a wide margin, including digital out. (Conspiracy theorists may cleverly insert the remark that use of the HDX biases DAC performance upward, &c.)

Problem is, there is a limited number of sample rates directly supported by the MacBook's internal audio IC (slight problem if you wish to demonstrate 192 kHz / 24-bit material without re-sampling), and, I don't have the space to drag around a Konnekt8 (I'm also running OS X 10.6, which precludes this for the short term due to driver issues).

Also–the NAPSC2 or HICAP for the Konnekt8 does make a substantial difference, and I honestly can't be arsed when the HDX outperforms it by a wide margin, seriously.

Personally–at standard sample rates, I think the iPod touch sounds better than the MacBook, the iPhone in Airplane Mode possibly better still. Your mileage may vary, as always–do the comparisons yourself before posting.

Nathaniel -

I should be able to demo a Mac Mini / Amarra / --> DAC v.s. HDX into DAC in a few weeks time.

I'll report back.

quote:

Originally posted by David Dever:
HDX is convenient as a one-box ripping / storage / playback solution, and clearly sounds better than a stock PC or Mac mini by a wide margin, including digital out.

Do you mean that an HDX with the DAC sounds better than a PC or MAC with the DAC? How can that be? The DAC is claimed to be independant of jitter in the source. What ripping software did you use on the PC and MAC? How did you get S/PDIF out of the PC? What factors degrade the sound when using a PC or Mac as a source? Can you reliably differentiate the HDX from a PC or MAC if you listen blind?

Here we go - another "bits are bits" circular argument.

Jim

It is absolutely NOT another 'bits are bits' circular argument.

It is that 'no jitter is no jitter'.

In the past it was often claimed that two sources could sound different, despite producing the same 'bits', because they introduced different amounts of jitter.

The new NAIM DAC claims to be independant of that. It is claimed by NAIM to have 'a level of performance that can compete with the finest from any Naim CD player to provide unrivalled musical fulfillment.

Notice the word 'unrivalled'.

Now David Dever disagrees with that and says it is clearly rivalled, and indeed surpassed, by an HDX.

So, assuming that differences that David hears are repeatable and demonstrable, what is the cause of them?

quote:

Originally posted by David Dever:
Your paranoia is unfounded–I carry a MacBook with optical out with me at all times. HDX is convenient as a one-box ripping / storage / playback solution, and clearly sounds better than a stock PC or Mac mini by a wide margin, including digital out. (Conspiracy theorists may cleverly insert the remark that use of the HDX biases DAC performance upward, &c.)
Problem is, there is a limited number of sample rates directly supported by the MacBook's internal audio IC (slight problem if you wish to demonstrate 192 kHz / 24-bit material without re-sampling), and, I don't have the space to drag around a Konnekt8 (I'm also running OS X 10.6, which precludes this for the short term due to driver issues).
Also–the NAPSC2 or HICAP for the Konnekt8 does make a substantial difference, and I honestly can't be arsed when the HDX outperforms it by a wide margin, seriously.
Personally–at standard sample rates, I think the iPod touch sounds better than the MacBook, the iPhone in Airplane Mode possibly better still. Your mileage may vary, as always–do the comparisons yourself before posting.

Dave - Will you be hitting Accent soon?

In reference to your post above you seem to be clearly stating that the ideal source for the new DAC is a HDX (when compared to a Mac/PC) and you prefer it by a "wide margin". As such one would need a HDX/DAC/XPS2 or 555PS. That is close to a $20K proposal I think people are looking to more affordable solutions for computer based playback. If this setup is truly required to make this new DAC sing than I am afraid people will be looking towards other solutions.

Gregg

quote:

It is absolutely NOT another 'bits are bits' circular argument.

It is that 'no jitter is no jitter'.

Spoken by Mr Indignant of Surbiton.

Yawn

Jim

Dear Dave

Am I right to think the MacBook problem around sample rates wouldn't apply if using a Firewire DAC? And that therefore a Weiss Minerva would continue to offer an advantage over the Naim DAC?

John

Allen

The most sensible post on here so far!

Cheers

Jim (also now on holiday from here)

Firewire has no embedded timing signal, so the Weiss just takes as much data as it needs, no timing issue, from what I have read firewire and async USB appear to offer the best computer audio solution, firewire of course needs drivers whaich have to be written and re written for every OS.

quote:

Originally posted by glevethan:
As such one would need a HDX/DAC/XPS2 or 555PS. That is close to a $20K proposal I think people are looking to more affordable solutions for computer based playback.

Gregg,

Your favourite Linn Klimax DS is also a 20k solution. ( altho, it's not really a DAC )

quote:

Am I right to think the MacBook problem around sample rates wouldn't apply if using a Firewire DAC?

Or any other Core Audio-compliant interface, USB, FireWire, PCI(e). This is certainly not an issue with the Naim DAC itself, but with the Apple audio ICs (as mentioned in other posts).

And not an issue with the HDX....

quote:

Originally posted by likesmusic:
Do you mean that an HDX with the DAC sounds better than a PC or MAC with the DAC? How can that be? The DAC is claimed to be independant of jitter in the source. What ripping software did you use on the PC and MAC? How did you get S/PDIF out of the PC? What factors degrade the sound when using a PC or Mac as a source? Can you reliably differentiate the HDX from a PC or MAC if you listen blind?

Jitter and noise are two entirely different things. Do the demonstrations yourself–in some cases you will find optical to provide a superior connection from sources with noisy ground planes, than coaxial digital connections.

You may also find that persistent electrical connections from noisy sources affects the performance of optical connections, due to radiated noise. Well worth doing the comparisons yourself–and, I might add, interesting to try on other DACs (including the Beresford) as well.

quote:

Originally posted by kuma:

quote:

Originally posted by glevethan:
As such one would need a HDX/DAC/XPS2 or 555PS. That is close to a $20K proposal I think people are looking to more affordable solutions for computer based playback.

Gregg,
Your favourite Linn Klimax DS is also a 20k solution. ( altho, it's not really a DAC )

Actually $18K I have yet to demo however it has been claimed (by many who have) that with the new Dynamik power supply upgrade the Akurate DS ($6K) now approaches the Klimax - and the Klimax now approaches the stratosphere (performance wise).

I think my point is also along the lines that Naim need to come up with an alternative to the HDX as a source (if they are not happy with a Mac/PC front end) IMHO. They cannot expect current CD owners to buy again just to gain the dig out of the new players - and many do not want to purchase the (expensive) HDX since they do not care for the hard drives/ripping features etc. A "front end" for the DAC could make sense - and together both could provide a nice digital file playback system.

Finally - Dave - what is the performance of the DAC/HDX/XPS2(or 555PS) which you have heard - is it up to CDX2/XPS2 level? CDS3 level? CD555 level? I would really like to know this as I am truly starting to dislike my CD's (even with a CDS3/555PS). Theoretically ripped files should sound better compared to CD playback however I did not find that to be the case with the HDX (a CDS3 sounded better). Does the new DAC system (with HDX and 555PS) sound better than the current lineup of CD players?

Gregg

Oh boy, here we go again. I think that the article that JS posted says alot,the most important point being that there are still alot of unanswered questions as to why, but source origination and other factors play a big part of what you here on the other side despite the "no jitter" issue.

Secondly, I don't know why people expect an ipod/PC/Mac DAC for under 4k to sound as good as a more expensive setup. If it did, and to some it will, then they won't be buying an HDX or other some such source from Naim.

I would not expect the ipod/DAC to sound better than a CDS3/555PSU system.

The real question is: Does the 4k sytem sound good enough for what you what to use the DAC for and is it worth spending the money?

Furthermore, no one's heard the final version or been able to compare it to other favorite Mac/DAC solutions which cost less. Only this comparison will help you decide if the Naim DAC at $3500 is worth it.

What if the Mac/DAC sounds better than the Linn DS series at least Majik, Accurate?

Can't everyone just listen and decide for themselves what's what?

quote:

Can't everyone just listen and decide for themselves what's what?

Sounds good to me. I'm pretty happy with and pretty confident about where the digital music roadmap is taking us, myself.

Again–do the dem.

quote:

Originally posted by likesmusic:

Do you mean that an HDX with the DAC sounds better than a PC or MAC with the DAC? How can that be? The DAC is claimed to be independant of jitter in the source. ....

Likesmusic,

IF jitter were the beginning and end of the issues then this would have all been sorted long since. The Benchmark DAC1 makes the same claims as solving jitter issues, and Meridian have been past masters of FIFO buffering to mention but two.

Using a wide variety of transports into the BM DAC1 I have noticed very big differences. This forum has been full of less than kind remarks about this DAC, I get superb results BUT have heard it sounding lousy just by changing the cable between the DVD5 and the DAC1.

Jitter free DACs do nothing to render the rest of the preceding HiFi change moot.

M

Do the demo

Good advice. I did it with the HDX and stayed where I was. I will do it again with a DAC/HDX/PS and compare to my CDS3/555PS and to the DS solutions. I am sure those who want a more simple system will demo a MAC/DAC against a MAC/other available DAC's.

Gregg

quote:

Originally posted by glevethan:
what is the performance of the DAC/HDX/XPS2(or 555PS) which you have heard - is it up to CDX2/XPS2 level? CDS3 level? CD555 level? I would really like to know this as I am truly starting to dislike my CD's (even with a CDS3/555PS). Theoretically ripped files should sound better compared to CD playback however I did not find that to be the case with the HDX (a CDS3 sounded better). Does the new DAC system (with HDX and 555PS) sound better than the current lineup of CD players?

I think you'll like the DAC's performance–though IMHO the CD555 still outperforms it on the same 555PS power supply, regardless of source (HDX / Mac / iPod).

David, you raise more questions than you answer. Please don'ttell me to listen, I shall; I'm asking what you hear. (And forget the Beresford - it is irrelevant here).

Accepting (with some surprise) your point about the superiority of optical, is it the case that a MAC connected via optical to a NAIM DAC sounds worse than an HDX connected to a NAIM DAC? (Both playing competently ripped red-book cds).

What do you mean the 'persistent electrical connnections from noisy sources affect the performance of optical connections'. Can you give an example of such a noisy source and how it is connected? Does the problem go away if the same source is connected optically?