DACs

quote:

Originally posted by glevethan:
Do the demo

Good advice. I did it with the HDX and stayed where I was. I will do it again with a DAC/HDX/PS and compare to my CDS3/555PS and to the DS solutions. I am sure those who want a more simple system will demo a MAC/DAC against a MAC/other available DAC's.

Gregg

Gregg,

You now have a bit of a dilemma as it seems you've changed your mind about what you want to do with digital replay and now are considering taking it from an "add on" to a potential primary source.

It will be interesting to hear your thoughts as you are one of the few that has heard the DS series. Perhaps it will change your mind or drive you to the Linn camp?

quote:

Originally posted by gary1 (US):

Gregg,

You now have a bit of a dilemma as it seems you've changed your mind about what you want to do with digital replay and now are considering taking it from an "add on" to a potential primary source.

It will be interesting to hear your thoughts as you are one of the few that has heard the DS series. Perhaps it will change your mind or drive you to the Linn camp?

Gary

The more I keep upgrading my turntable the more I grow disenchanted with my CD playback (even though I have A LOT of cd's). I am losing hope that CD playback will ever get to equal that of vinyl - as such I might as well have the convenience of playback (iPod Touch control of the entire library) to compensate for the lack of sonic bliss. It will be interesting to see how the new "system" (ie DAC w/ associated components) stacks up - although I still would prefer an alternative "source" to the HDX as I do not need or want the hard drives,ripping mechanisms etc. To me one of the points of digital playback is also the ability to get rid of the drives, transport etc. - just things that will eventually break and require the unit to be sent back for repair.

Gregg

PS Oh - by the way - I am already in the Linn camp - LP12!

quote:

Originally posted by glevethan:
...
I think my point is also along the lines that Naim need to come up with an alternative to the HDX as a source (if they are not happy with a Mac/PC front end) IMHO. They cannot expect current CD owners to buy again just to gain the dig out of the new players - and many do not want to purchase the (expensive) HDX since they do not care for the hard drives/ripping features etc. A "front end" for the DAC could make sense - and together both could provide a nice digital file playback system.
...
Gregg

Gregg
Just search for "Streamer" on this forum and you'll there's already been lots and lots of discussion about a digital front to Naim's DAC.

-
Aleg

quote:

Originally posted by Aleg:

quote:

Originally posted by glevethan:
...
I think my point is also along the lines that Naim need to come up with an alternative to the HDX as a source (if they are not happy with a Mac/PC front end) IMHO. They cannot expect current CD owners to buy again just to gain the dig out of the new players - and many do not want to purchase the (expensive) HDX since they do not care for the hard drives/ripping features etc. A "front end" for the DAC could make sense - and together both could provide a nice digital file playback system.
...
Gregg

Gregg
Just search for "Streamer" on this forum and you'll there's already been lots and lots of discussion about a digital front to Naim's DAC.

-
Aleg

I know - I have been an active participant on many of those discussions
Gregg

Gregg,

Even if Naim developed a "streamer" without HDDs like the HDX, there would still be debates about whether the ripped files from the HDX sounded better or not than those ripped with EAC etc...

From what I've heard so far the only thing that has come close or equal to top notch vinyl has been 24 bit files played through the HDX/555PS. Nothing else has been in the ballpark.

gary1,

Which * top notch* vinyl are you referring to?

Gary ,I compared the HDX to a mac/Weiss and the mac was substantially better imho ymmv etc.
I am hoping the new Naim dac mmight be better than the Weiss?

quote:

Originally posted by DHT:
Gary ,I compared the HDX to a mac/Weiss and the mac was substantially better imho ymmv etc.
I am hoping the new Naim dac mmight be better than the Weiss?

OK, so? Great. I'm glad you liked the Mac/Weiss.

quote:

Originally posted by kuma:
gary1,

Which * top notch* vinyl are you referring to?

Set-up at Promusica. Fully decked out LP12 (aro, etc...)superline, HL,PLs,full 500 series sytem.

Listened to both vinyl and original 24 bit masters and vinyl A2D recordings vs. original vinyl.

The A2Ds done with setup menioned many times by JS.

quote:

Originally posted by DHT:
Gary ,I compared the HDX to a mac/Weiss and the mac was substantially better imho ymmv etc.
I am hoping the new Naim dac mmight be better than the Weiss?

I am hoping so too.

Have you compared the Mac/Weiss to any of the Naim CDP's - I would be curious as to your conclusions. I have compared the HDX to the CDP's and to my ears (and others) it seems to match up to a CDX2. Does your Mac/Weiss sound better than a CDX2?

Gregg

quote:

Originally posted by gary1 (US):

quote:

Originally posted by kuma:
gary1,

Which * top notch* vinyl are you referring to?

Set-up at Promusica. Fully decked out LP12 (aro, etc...)superline, HL

That is what I mean - no digital system is going to touch that vinyl setup. That is why I am starting to hate my CD's - I run the same vinyl front end (no SuperCap just power from the 552) and nothing can hold a candle to it. Just wait until my Keel goes in (and maybe a Radikal to replace the Geddon (wishfully thinking)) - then look out

Gregg

Gregg Hi, I owned a CDx2 plus PS , the Weiss was better imho, I was disappointed with the HDX compared to my then Nain cdp, it appears that naim aimed their server 'mid table' .

I had the same opinion when demoing the HDX.

I have not had a chance to listen to the Weiss (impossible without making a blind purchase) so I will first have a listen to the Naim DAC - however fronted by a Mac.

Gregg

Gregg, if it helps, I was lucky enough recently to get a Weiss on free trial at home. I wanted my CDX2/XPS2 to be better (I had arrogantly told my partner it was bound to be and was testing the Weiss to seek to prove my point to her) but listening to .flac using firewire and a MacBook was noticeably better to both of us (more detail, more control but the same dynamics).

I felt optical was not in the same league. Nor could I get the same quality of sound from the Weiss when using firewire from an XP front-end. (I have posted on another forum to see if this is inherent in XP or related to my lowish spec XP laptop).

So as I've already posted - I'll be testing the Naim DAC against the Weiss towards the end of next month. The front end WILL be a Mac Mini / Amarra - despite its many flaws

Given that the Weiss will have the significant advantage courtesy of Firewire - I'd appreciate any feedback from dealers (David / JS etc) on how I can squeeze the maximum performances out of the Mac Mini - Naim DAC setup. If I need to purchase a Konnekt8 - probably will do so. But is this need? Would this be the best approach?

Looking forwards to constructive guidance on this matter.

Richard

Richard - if you prefer the Naim DAC and want to check out interface options compared to say the Mac Mini optical try using the Weiss as a temporary interface - it'll act as a Firewire to SPDIF, AES/EBU inteface.

James

Dave is more familiar with MACs in general but tos should be fine if Naim did what they claim but obviously I can't say because I can't know without a listen or what tradeoffs may exist. When Dave said the MAC can't do 192, the Weiss or a TC won't either as long as your using the OS mixer which is what's happening unless something like Amarra bypasses it. I don't consider this significant as 96 gets the job done quite well and I won't know what effect the mixer has in this configuration until auditioned. I suspect I will still prefer it bypassed so something like Amara to tos out may be great and probably do 192. I thought current MACs did 192 anyways but again. I'm no MAC OS expert.

As posted by another, I agree a MAC sounds better than a PC out of the box with internal mixers but if using a Weiss or TC with a PC, you should always use a media player with ASIO capability(many) which should put it ahead of a stock MAC. I believe Amara and some others programs level the playing field for the platforms. Streaming eliminates any differences and mixers. If one needs to spend an extra $300 US for a TC to make a DAC better, I don't see a problem with that but I wouldn't assume I need it as it's greatest asset is clocking which may no longer be an issue with the Naim DAC. Of course it may also exhibit less noise if configured properly but there's no way to know until these combos are tried. Time will tell which is why I thought a bit of a pause may be appropriate.

Weiss bought the DICE II technology and chips from TC as did Lynx for the firewire portion of their card so there's nothing ground breaking or advantageous there other than the Weiss being a nice all in one DAC but it will have the same setup issues some have with a TC. Same setup, same benefits, just one less box if it's determined that DICE II is the way to go. With the TC, the earth is isolated from the SPdif. I do find it a bit odd now that Naim have gone to extreme lengths to make TOS and SPdif in general jitter proof without ignoring the original clock, some that defended TOS strongly now insist the firewire or USB are the only way to go. It remains to be seen if one will actually outperform the other with the DAC. I also want to add that it's not the firewire that makes a TC etc. good as much as it is the DICE II circuit. Firewire is required for it but I've tried a few other firewire and PCI interfaces and none were close. I do not have 1st hand experience with the Lynx inboard card so I have no opinion on it but believe the consensus that it's also very good. I always forget the name of the AES/EBU to SPdif adapter we use but we've tried a bunch and one stood out. Of course it may or may not matter as much with the Naim DAC but will definitely for others so I'll post this for Lynx card users as soon as I have a look again in the next couple of days. We use it the other direction but it should be the same transformer internally.

The TC vs tos dem is one I'll be able to do for cutomers that want to hear it and I would lend any local a TC to play with if they want to. It is not what will make or break the DAC but there is certainly nothing wrong with trying to get the most from any piece of kit.

JS - thanks. If you gain any insights over the next few weeks - would be interested.

James - inspired! I should have thought of that :-/ i.e. I can use the Weiss to convert to Optical.

I'm assuming most people would assume that was a good way to create a clean signal for the DAC.

I'm completely agnostic. I want to given each option the best setup I can. Hence the recent Amarra purchase


Cheers

Richard

I'd try both the Coax and TOS out on the Weiss DAC. The Coax may already be ground isolated from the source and Naim have still chosen coax for outputs in their own kit. I suspect the difference to be smaller but coax to still be preferred when ground noise or earthing isn't a problem.

Richard Hi, I hope to be able to compare both Dacs ( Naim and Weiss ) through both optical and firewire, using ( as James mentioned ) the Weiss as just a firewire interface it should be interesting.

JS

Thanks for the highly detailed explanation/analysis. Highly appreciated as always. Now we just need for this DAC to arrive. Have you received an ETA from AES?

Gregg

No and I never push for ETA as they won't ship until happy. I hate to give incorrect info and disappoint. They'll hold it if something isn't just right in production so a few weeks this way or that I think.

quote:

Dave is more familiar with MACs in general but tos should be fine if Naim did what they claim but obviously I can't say because I can't know without a listen or what tradeoffs may exist. When Dave said the MAC can't do 192, the Weiss or a TC won't either as long as your using the OS mixer which is what's happening unless something like Amarra bypasses it. I don't consider this significant as 96 gets the job done quite well and I won't know what effect the mixer has in this configuration until auditioned. I suspect I will still prefer it bypassed so something like Amara to tos out may be great and probably do 192. I thought current MACs did 192 anyways but again. I'm no MAC OS expert.

Mac OS X is perfectly capable of handling any sample rate; however, the built-in sound card (to use a rather obsolete term) that provides optical output is limited to direct support of 44.1 / 48 / 96kHz only, without re-sampling. (This was not the case with older units, BTW.)

There should be no problem with any other sound card, as regards sample rates, provided that the drivers and hardware are capable of bit-perfect audio pass-through from your playback application.