250 or save up for 135's
Posted by: markcas on 25 January 2002
As I am in upgrade mode, was wondering what your views were on using the 250 with the Arc's. I get the impression that a lot of you don't like it that much compared with the 180 or 135's. It's been said that it sounds "warm" in comparison.
Is this is true with Arc's? And will this warmth be more fogiving of crap production given Mrs Mark's taste in music. Or am I confusing warmth with smoothness?
I like the sound the 180 makes, and believe the 135's make a similar sound, only better and much more controlled.
Do you think the 250 is a worth while upgrade or shall I keep the 180 and save up for 135's.
BTW Almost ready to order CDX and Supercap.
Cheers,
Mark.
I've lived with both, and currently have 250's into active SBL's which I prefer to passive 135's (previous set-up).
135's ought to be 'better' but be careful; they sound very different. I believe your speakers have a pretty 'up-front' presentation?
If you're looking for a full on 'in-yer-face' sound; the 135's will do it, but you may prefer the somewhat warmer laid back feel of the 250.
There's only one way to find out.
If you play music loud then another consideration here has to be the 250's obviously inadequate heat dissipation design. The fact is that a fully-spec. 250 can't play 60 minutes of music at a loud volume into a 4-ohm load without thermal tripping. This is a very frustrating aspect of its design and one reported by many owners. It is, in my opinion, unacceptable in a $3600 amp. It's a mystery to me why Naim has never seen fit, in the 20-odd year product lifespan of this amp, to make the modest changes (heat sink and fan) that would fix this problem. Obviously they know how to do it; the 135s stay nice and cool.
So you probably won't be disappointed with 135s, but you might be with the 250 (I was).
Incidentally, I've seen some demo 135s around, with warranty, for $4K -- close to the price of a new 250
as a result of a system problem, i had the opportunity recently to compare 5 250's in the process of replacing my own 250 (which i felt was letting my active system down). just in terms of "warmth" (assuming we are using this word in the same way), my results, after very intensive listening, are as follows:
dealers own 250 (cant remember serial no, but perhaps 4 or 5 years old) ---- nice and warm. no hard edge.
my own good 250 (virtually new 2001 vintage) -- very nice and warm, very similar to dealers old one.
another 2000 vintage 250 -- very fast and rhythmic -- but a lot less warm than either of the above 2.
a 1998 vintage 250 -- nice and warm, similar to my new one -- and this is the one i got in the end, after which my system ignited with musicality
i guess it may not always be true that the newer amps are less warm than the older ones, but then again, by experience is hardly statistically valid -- just a recent experience i wanted to share...
enjoy
ken
Try CDX/XPS first--it will give your 180 a surprising amount of additional control over your speakers. Actually, if you can, just go to the CDS2--you might not feel the need to upgrade for a long time.
Cheers,
Bob
E-mail me if you're interested.
(East Anglia)
I was in a similar position to you sometime ago where I had a 250 driving Obelisks. I kept my eyes out for second hand 135s for a long time and then had a listen to a Dynavector HX75 power amp. I was really impresed with this and ended up actually getting a Dynavector HX1.2 (the bigger one) but the HX75 was really great. Have a read of Jason Hector's review of this power amp in HiFi Plus a few months ago.
I now use the Dynavector power amp with a Naim pre-amp and CD player and it is brilliant.
Do try and have a listen to either Dynavector power amps before upgrading your power amplification. They have been designed with Shahinian speakers in mind.
Best regards
Raphael
I have to qualify my liking for the Obelisks. First of all I love Naim electronics but have not been particularly fond of some of their speakers (excepting things like DBLs which are beyond my pocket!,and Allaes which I have not heard). The electroncs have all kinds of wonderful characteristics that help me to really enjoy the music but the speakers have always sounded a bit 'hard' for me. The Obelisks have a more rounded and open sound which I therefore find partners Naim electronics really well. Obs have a very large dynamic range and bandwidth and are very dynamic. They also (with the right driving equipment) give an excellent sound stage. Do remember that they have sounds firing in all kinds of directions and (I believe) use 7 drivers and a passive radiator - I have been told that Linn took some of the ideas from Shahinian and used them to create the Isobariks but this is pure hearesay. Finally, Obelisks are really easy to live with - they are not too imposing in my living room, are reasonably tolerant of room placement and sound best on castors! - which makes it easy for cleaning.
I know that I am not alone in these views but some words of warning. Obs do take some time to settle in before they start sounding good. From new, they take many hundreds of hours of play. Obs also benefit from powerful amplification - I orginally drove them with a very old 250 which was okay but not great. I then went to a Dynavector HX1.2 which is fantastic - but with all Naim stuff ahead of this - 52, CDS2.
Finally, I have called up Shahinian from UK and they have been very helpful and I have heard this from many different people. Given your location, I would try to arrange to pop in and seem them.
Happy listening
Raphael
I’m using a 250 with Arcs. I’ve had no direct experience of the 135 in my own system but was babysitting a 180 for a friend a while ago and took the opportunity to compare it to my 250. Firstly, it was a very, very good amp. That said, it did sound a little harsher than the 250. This was down to a slight smear and fizzyness evident in the upper registers and perhaps a slightly harder, more forward mid. My 250 had apparently less bass but this was an artefact as in actuality the 250 provided greater extension and control - the 180 sounded a little bigger, due to a relative lack of grip (nb relative).
I think the 250 is a super amp for the ARCs and was using it with an 82 until very recently – a very good combo. I don’t think it has any problems driving them at all – mine never sound like there balls are being squeezed. To be honest CDX/82/supercap/180 is a great system and, in my opinion, nothing much will improve it very very significantly, and anything that does even a little will cost you lots. If youre hell bent on disposing your disposable income, Id go for a 52 first (its very easy to sell 82s at the moment), followed by the XPS. Then 250, then CDS2. Then stop – any more is madness in my opinion….Go buy CDs!
Newer Arcs are an easier load than older ones apparently.
For me, the Obelsiks are a VERY intriguing possibility. Id love to hear a well run in pair but am not sure I can risk it!
Steve
PS If anyone is thinking of moving up from ARCS to Obelisks drop me a line. A friend whos heard my system is gagging for a pair of s/h ARCS but theyre like unicorn s**t!