O. Peterson, Night Train - what’s with the sound?

Thomas,

I noticed as well something is "wrong" with the sound quality of Night Train, but I couldn't name it. In general the Verve Master Edition series sound great, Night Train is unfortunately one of the exceptions. I'll have a listen tonight to see if I can hear the things you described.

Ciao!

Willem

Jonathon, Willem,

The ID I found on the spine of the disc jacket is 521 440-2 (copyright 1997 PolyGram). Try for instance track 2, “C-Jam Blues”: 40 seconds into the track Thipgen starts on the ride cymbal, if you pan the balance control hard left, the ride is all tizzle tizzle, if you pan hard right you get about the same volume for the ride, but all dingle dingle (I know, very scientific). In analogy to the “floating head” metaphor, it’s like hearing the cymbal’s head on one channel and the body on the other (and to my ears it’s not just room reflections causing this effect).

Perhaps someone has a non-remastered version to compare. I’m always a bit wary of remasters – some are very good, but others you simply wonder what the benefits are supposed to be (apart from new revenue for the record company). Anyway, thanks for participating in the “Anorak of the Week” endeavour – wish I could join you lot for a drink tonight!

Thomas

Jonathan,

I've got this on original vinyl & on CD ( not remastered I think ) . When I get home & have calmed down a bit, (hard day behind my camera), I will do an A/B & report.

Bob.

OK, I've just listened to vinyl & CD of C Jam Blues & this is what I heard.

My vinyl copy I bought new in 1973 & is a first pressing, the CD is a few years old & is cat number 821724-2.

The ride cymbal is actually a ride/sizzle. The sizzle being paper clip thingys that rattle in regularly spaced holes around the cymbal edge. To me it sounds as if Ed Thigpen has about half the holes filled with 'rivets'.

This track has always had a slightly swirling cymbal top end that is fairly consistent with a sizzle from this period. I'm getting about 80% from the R/H speaker and 20% from the left. The L/H is purely high frequency fizz that is subjectively slightly out of phase with the rest.
I have found that remasters can exaggerate this kind of thing, but as I haven't got one I can't comment in this case.

FWIW, & I know that I'm stirring up a can of worms here but when I used Mana the swirling phasey effect was exaggerated. On Hutter the effect is reduced. These were in comparison to Tripod stands.

If you want to hear a sizzle with lots of rivets try Miles Davis, Kind Of Blue, about 2 minutes into So What......nice!

Bob.

Thomas,

Well, I just listened to Night Train and to my ears the record sounds dull. If you turn up the volume it's less obvious, but the music remains muffled. There is clearly something wrong with the higher frequencies. Could be the thing you found.

My dealer has a version of "We get requests" on cd which sounds much better than the Verve Master Edition version, which to my ears already sounds great. He uses it on demoes from time to time. I have the impression, not so much for the music as to make the rest of us who have the Verve Master Edition jealous!

I'm looking forward to hear the verdict of the panel!

Ciao!

Willem

Bob,

You bought “Night Train” as a teenager? Kudos galore! (At 16, I just about managed to ditch Loverboy as my “favourite band” and put AC/DC at the top of my playlist.)

Anyway, thanks for your observations. I suppose the “swirling cymbal top end” you refer to presents quite a challenge for timing accuracy between the two channels – maybe at some point, when the material was recorded, remixed or remastered, the equipment used was simply not up to par and permanently screwed things up for posterity.

BTW, when I switch to mono, the top end and lower frequencies of the ride/sizzle are once again joined in physical unity, but the phasiness is still there.

Willem,

Yes, “dull-sounding” was my initial impression when I first played the CD. As concerns “We Get Requests”, I refrained from buying the Verve Master Edition since I copied a friend’s older CD (not remastered, probably what your dealer has too) – while obviously an older recording, there is nothing about it I would wish to change. I’ve listened to the remastered version and apart from a bit more top end (and hiss), I couldn’t make out any gains in the music. Oh what joy it would be to track down an older CD version …

Now let’s see what The Panel says.

Thomas

[This message was edited by Thomas Kunzler on WEDNESDAY 07 March 2001 at 12:40.]

Well. to my ears the cymbals lack treble extention and have a hint of 'frying-eggs' fizz that isn't a normal a part of a cymbal's sound -rivets or not (try the Miles track or any of the Zappa albums with Mr Cymbal aka Terrio Bozzio on drums for some quality cymbal sounds!).

This was true on both SBLs and DBLs. However, to be honest I don't give two-hoots about any of this after about 10 seconds as the album SWINGS - life's too short!

"You bought “Night Train” as a teenager? Kudos galore! "

Thanks Thomas. My first record that I bought was You Really Got Me by The Kinks in 1964, at the age of 7.

Bob ( with a rather smug grin!!!)

"Bob - sorry - bob - if I wasn't sure already I'd now know you are a cool dude."

Jonathan, maybe there was just a teency weency bit of sarcasm in that statement?" ;-)))

Bob. (not very cool, but enjoys his music)

Bob,

do you have a distict taste for the musical stylings of 'Yes'?

Where did all go wrong?

Do you have a distict taste for the musical stylings of 'Yes'?

Martin,

Well, erm... yes I do! I think it transports me back to my misspent, at times combustible (if you know what I mean) youth. Not a care in the world, ahhhh...

I don't think that YES were ever the greatest band in the world, but it just hits the spot for this ageing hippy!

Much love & peace,

Bob.

And the same to you.

I'd wish the same on Jon Anderson however I've yet to forgive his 'Jon & Venagelis' era.

Actually I spotted the track 'Roundabout' on a CD last night. I gave it go. I failed. Good bass playing though. Next stop was Bernard Purdie's verson of Shaft.

Martin,

quote:

---

I don't give two-hoots about any of this after about 10 seconds

---

Of course, you’re right – perhaps I’m a little too (insert flower and butterfly icons) sensitive (or, if you prefer, anal). In any case I’d prefer the recording to have heaps of hiss, an extreme lack of top end or whatever, I just find it very distracting that the cymbals on an Oscar album should sound like something from outer space.

Thanks for all your replies. If anyone ever gets to compare the remaster with an older CD version, please let me know whether the latter is worth tracking down.

First album I ever bought: Jackson Browne, “Running on Empty”.

Thomas

Inspired by this thread I paid a visit to one of Luxemburgs record shops. I was looking for Very Tall, but ended up with The Sound of the Trio. Very swinging, sounds great!
I bought as well Billy Holiday's Lady in Satin and Louis Armstrong's The Complete Hot Five and Hot Seven Recordings. The packaging of the latter is really fantastic. It's in fact an 80 pages luxurious booklet (great photo's) with four CDs. The sound of the CDs is "historic". I hope to have some time to listen this weekend!

Ciao!

Willem

P.S. My first album was Kiss Alive II!

I have the Verve German vinyl of Night Train, and the music is rather good, but I too always thought the top end was fizzy. On my copy, there is quite a bit of treble extension, not muffled at all. Overall, I wouldn't rate it as top quality sound, because of that cymbal thing.

FWIW I also have the German Verve press of "Very Tall", which is quite a bit duller, and I have the CD of "We Get Requests" - remaster, which sounds really very good, esp. on a pair of original Quads (ESLs and QII amps).