New Box or Stand

If you buy a new stand next then the question dissapears doesnt it!!

Go and dem a Naim Fraim and see how good they are.

However if you decide to buy a new box next then purchase the 82 pre-amp. It will make a huge difference. The 102 is a little bit lost in between a CDX/XPS and a 250.

Regards

NB

you live in your own property and plan to stay there for a period of time - investigate the possibility of installing dedicated mains spurs.

There is no worse an evangelist than a recent convert.

Derek

Thanks guys.

I'm currently looking at the electricity supply as
I recently increased the rating of the box fuses and the difference I heard just blew me away.
So I'm trying desperatley to find a way to get a separate spur installed without ripping up the new wooden floor. Hopefully I can go up into the loft and back down again which should stop the missus from complaining too much.
I just can't bring myself to pay out £1800 for a stand, even if I did like it, so it would have to be a cheaper alternative in the forseeable future. So it looks like a toss up between the XPS and the 82. I'll have to find a demo as it seems to be a personal choice between releasing
some of the quality already held back or increasing the source of that quality.
Put like that it would seem more sensible to change the pre-amp and maybe it would be easier to find a 2nd hand one for a decent price?

I'm not sure I like this talk of a supercap as I'm only putting off the inevitable 52/252 upgrade! That put's the fear of god into me as I've already spread a web of lies and deceipt to get this far.

Mum's the word.

The 102/Hi/250 is such a dire combination (imho)that it's a wonder your teeth are still in your mouth. Get an 82 pronto, or something from the new range.

Then you can think about XPSs and other things.

The 102 works just fine with a 140. The 250 just spits it out.

Regards,

Steve.

It's just a pleasure to hear music as it was intended to be heard.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Steven Toy:
The 102/Hi/250 is such a dire combination (imho)that it's a wonder your teeth are still in your mouth_

---

Steven. You are talking bollocks again. 102/Hi/250 is an exceptionally good performer and really good value for money. Dev

There is no question here ,get a Frame....anyone who said buy anything else has never had a Frame or heard what a Frain can do....it sounds funny but the Fraim is worth its weight in gold as far as an audio up grade.....

Chaps

Dev is right, Steven is talking twaddle. My second system is only a 32.5+hicap/250 and it sounds superb.

Steven, please stop making statements unless they are backed by either experience or fact.

Regards

Mick

quote:

---

Steven. You are talking bollocks again. 102/Hi/250 is an exceptionally good performer and really good value for money. Dev

---

The 102 is out of place in this set up. The treble distortion is almost unbearable. My ears were obviously talking bollocks!

You could wing it with a 180, but not with a 250. This is my experience.

I have never heard the 72, but I suspect it is easier on the ear at the top end, and so works well in that all-time classic combo of 72/Hi/250 used by Mr. Pig himself, Mick's best buddy.

quote:

---

An 82 on its own is vastly superior to a 102 even with a supercap.

---

Well said that man!

Regards,

Steve.

It's just a pleasure to hear music as it was intended to be heard.

I'll wager that Mick's old 32.5 sounds sweeter at the top end than a 102 in conjunction with a Hi/250...

[Running for cover]

Regards,

Steve.

It's just a pleasure to hear music as it was intended to be heard.

I tend to agree with enigma. Swapping the 32-5 for an 82 is going to make a huge difference. The 32-5 will be stifling the sound.

Changing your stands to a Naim Fraim will only highlite the weakness in the 32-5. It has to be better to get the best system you can afford and then improve the stands and cables etc to suit.


Regards


NB

I went through a period of dissatisfaction with my kit on Sound Org steel tables.

In desperation, I dumped it all on the floor and re-connected it. It was better.

This is not myth or magic - steel framed supports do something horrible to the sound. ANY support made of wood WILL sound better. Try it. I did, on a home made rack.

I now have Fraim and it is worth every penny. We all have to get over the psychological hurdle of trying to justify its price.

I reckon you could do it for £1,500 (Base + 3 levels). It is a cost effective upgrade; not silly money for some shelves.

You will not realise the potential of the kit you have until you support it properly.

A friend needed convincing the other day, so we moved, just my CDS head unit onto a proprietary steel spiked table and at the time were using a Nait 2 and SBL's.

We of course expected it to be better, but was obvious from when the master tape opened. We didn't really need the first note of the music.

A jaw dropping improvement.

Guess what; he's ordered Fraim.

Quote:-

I now have Fraim and it is worth every penny. We all have to get over the psychological hurdle of trying to justify its price.

I reckon you could do it for £1,500 (Base + 3 levels). It is a cost effective upgrade; not silly money for some shelves.
______________________________________________________________________________


I agree entirely. I placed a Naim Fraim under my CDX/82/hi/180 and I think it well worth the £1,500 I paid for it, but you have to have a decent well balanced system in the first place. If your system is out of balance the Fraim is only going to make it worse.


Regards

NB

quote:

---

Originally posted by EnigmaUK:

quote:

---

Originally posted by hi fi fo fum:
There is no question here ,get a Frame....anyone who said buy anything else has never had a Frame or heard what a Frain can do....it sounds funny but the Fraim is worth its weight in gold as far as an audio up grade.....

---

Dear Mr Hi fi fo fum,

have mucho experiance with fraim, and an 82 it aint!
Even if andy were to put his system on the fraim (i dont dipute that this would improve it) the 102 would still be creating the mullet effect, the fraim is never going to negate that.

Go on andy, do it, you know you want to!

Don't Blame me ! I was told to say that !!!!!!!!

---

NO I dont think you have any experiance with the Frame.....No none at all....if you did ,well will just leave it at that....

Andy,

When you make pertinent comparisons, try first swapping the 102 to a 52/Scap. Then reinstate your 102 and add an XPS. I did this comparison with Paul and Rohit (who also participate in this forum) and I don't recall any dispute. This also seems to have been Cliff's experience. But what now matters is yours...

Stewart

Over the past year I've installed a couple of dedicated spurs, fitted Bussman 10amp fuses, upgraded from a 32.5 to an 82 and replaced Sound Org (and Target) stands with Fraim, in that order.

Each change has been significant and I consider all good value for money, particularly the Bussman fuses and the spurs, which, for probably no more than £200, amazed me with their ability to improve the system beyond what anyone could reasonably expect.

Like Andy, I was "torn" between an 82 or stand upgrade - Fraim in my case - as the next purchase, perhaps veering more towards the Fraim because, having improved the power supply, I was keen to optimise my existing kit. The availability of an almost new 82 at a very reasonable price made the decision for me and I was delighted with the improvements that brought.

The Fraim however, for me, is in a different league in terms of what it achieves and I fail to understand why people feel comfortable spending £1800 on a preamp but not on a stand. If it produces a qualitatively better result, why not?

hi fi fo fum, JN and Dozy are absolutely right, unless you've got your equipment support sorted out, you're not getting full value from the black boxes you already have.

Dave

Dave , thank-you .....I could not have said it better .....When you get your Frame buy your self a set of wrenches I think it is 14 mm so you can get the base nuts tight. Also the bar that comes with the Frame, used to tighten the spikes for the up rights is pritty weak , ask your dealer to get you an extra one... you should put all the pieces together and let it sit over night, then re-check all spikes, bolts for tightness then start to stack the Frames..you may find the Mana level comes in handy to get the base right.
The Frame is easy to put together but there are many ways to get the best out of it.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Steven Toy:

quote:

---

Steven. You are talking bollocks again. 102/Hi/250 is an exceptionally good performer and really good value for money. Dev

---

The 102 is out of place in this set up. The treble distortion is almost unbearable. My ears were obviously talking bollocks!

You could wing it with a 180, but not with a 250. This is my experience.

_

---

Steve,

Something must have been wrong when you did this comparison. Must be a set up problem elsewhere. Or maybe the amps you personally use are so poor that you have conditoned yourself to a bad sound and cannot distinguish quality when you hear it.

In any event, it is a waste of time to try a reason with your peculiar logic (or possibly your broken system?).

Your experience is at variance with everyone elses on this thread, so all the evidence points at you being wrong (again).

Dev

I'll follow your advice and get the wrenches and spare bar. If you have any other specific recommendations perhaps you could post them as a separate thread.

Cheers

Dave

It never ceases to amaze me the amount of feedback you get on this site.
I can see valid points in most of the arguments put forward. I'm not sure about sticking the kit on the floor though, can that really be an improvement?? If it is, it's a massive kick in the bollocks for Sound Org.
I did think that it would be a little more clear cut as too which path to follow, but apparantly
not, never mind, I suppose that's the fun of the chase.
Looks like the only way to solve this little conundrum is to get off my arse and borrow some kit, pronto, and I suppose in a way the Fraim would have to provide some pretty serious results to warrant the kind of spend it requires.I'll have to dem that as well.

"You can use your Mana level to get the FRAIM base
flat"
That did make me chuckle.

quote:

---

Originally posted by EnigmaUK:

quote:

---

Originally posted by hi fi fo fum:

quote:

---

Originally posted by EnigmaUK:

quote:

---

Originally posted by hi fi fo fum:
There is no question here ,get a Frame....anyone who said buy anything else has never had a Frame or heard what a Frain can do....it sounds funny but the Fraim is worth its weight in gold as far as an audio up grade.....

---

Dear Mr Hi fi fo fum,

have mucho experiance with fraim, and an 82 it aint!
Even if andy were to put his system on the fraim (i dont dipute that this would improve it) the 102 would still be creating the mullet effect, the fraim is never going to negate that.

Go on andy, do it, you know you want to!

Don't Blame me ! I was told to say that !!!!!!!!

---

NO I dont think you have any experiance with the Frame.....No none at all....if you did ,well will just leave it at that....

---

You sad Sack, I have a Fraim.
The problem is not with Andy's rack so it would be a waste in his system for a while yet.
I realise you may have had a near religious experience with the fraim and feel the need to preach about it but it is not pertinent in this instance.
Spoken once again Yoda Has.

Don't Blame me ! I was told to say that !!!!!!!!

---

No Sorry I still don't Think you have a Frame.....If you did.........well you know

quote:

---

Or maybe the amps you personally use are so poor that you have conditoned yourself to a bad sound and cannot distinguish quality when you hear it.

---

The problem was remedied by swapping the 102 for an 82. Wow! Big difference. Now smoother, more focused, lower noise floor and there was also imaging rather than just harshness in the treble. It now sounded like what I was used to at home with my Densen amps, better even, now that the 250 was being adequately nourished.

Choosing between a 102/Hi/250 and a Densen B200/300, I'd take the Densens on any day.

Swapping the 102 for an 82, and I'd take the Naims home quite happily.

An 82/Hi/250 versus the B200 with my new B300XS in place of the B300? Now that is a tough one, and I haven't had chance to do the comparison, but I bet it's a close call.

BTW, I only mentioned Densen in comparison with Naim because Dev chose to suggest they were poor in quality.

I must stress that I think that the 102 is/was a great preamp, but it doesn't go with a 250. It is happier partnering a 140 or even a 180. The 250 otoh warrants a better preamp with the 82 being an absolute minimum, because this power amp is just too revealing of the relative faults of the 102.

All imho of course!

quote:

---

Your experience is at variance with everyone elses on this thread, so all the evidence points at you being wrong (again).

---

I wonder what Naim would say about that...

I doubt they would advise using a 102 with a Hi/250. I know my dealer frowned when I attempted it, and he was proved right. Hierarchical imbalance?

Definitely.

I think it may be possible that some people are getting as anal about Naim as others do about M***

Regards,

Steve.

It's just a pleasure to hear music as it was intended to be heard.

[This message was edited by Steven Toy on THURSDAY 21 November 2002 at 01:56.]

quote:

---

Your experience is at variance with everyone elses on this thread, so all the evidence points at you being wrong (again).

---

14 people have posted on this thread, of which five have expressed an opinion either way regarding the suitability of a 102 with a Hi/250.

NB, and Enigma UK both seem to agree with me.

Alan agrees with you but his experience points to using a 180 with the 102, and not a 250.

Mick uses a 32-5 with his Hi/250 and not a 102.

That just leaves you Dev.

I rest my case.

Regards,

Steve.

It's just a pleasure to hear music as it was intended to be heard.

[This message was edited by Steven Toy on THURSDAY 21 November 2002 at 03:12.]

quote:

---

Something must have been wrong when you did this comparison. Must be a set up problem elsewhere.

---

This thread is about stands as well as boxes so:-

I undertook this comparison between the 102 and 82 into a Hi/250 back in the summer of last year when I first heard the QS Ref stand. This stand is highly revealing of a system's hierarchical imbalance, just like Mana.

If the 102 was on a Phase or two more of Mana than the 250, the imbalance would be ironed out I think. Dev, I know you are a Mana user, so this in itself may skew the results somewhat. Mana has its own Effect™.

Also, at that time, the Fraim wasn't available at my dealer, but it is now, so the results may again be different on Fraim.

Regards,

Steve.

It's just a pleasure to hear music as it was intended to be heard.

Sorry Steven, I have 102/NAPSC/Hi-Cap/250 and it works well. Not as well as an 82 but there's certainly no obvious shortcomings (for this level of equipment) in the musical or tonal departments.

Best Regards,
Mark Dunn

Fair comment. The NAPSC certainly helps.

BTW, what stand do you use?

Regards,

Steve.

It's just a pleasure to hear music as it was intended to be heard.