Riders get activated in TW – The 9’o clock curfew
Posted by: David Hobbs-Mallyon on 17 January 2003
First trip for the Riders in 2003 was back on home territory, with a visit to Mr Alves to catch up with how his sistem is sounding since upgrading from passive 180 to active 250s driving his SBLs. For those who didn’t catch the earlier report with full details of his sistem, you can find it here. For those who didn’t catch that Tom had upgraded to an active sistem, do a search on “How do I improve PRaT”, “What is the best upgrade path” or “How do I become rich, successful and more attractive to women” and you should find a post from Tom, about how going active is the first step on your path to nirvana. Needless to say, we were quite interested to hear what all the fuss is about.
When I arrived the atmosphere was definitely slightly more understated than usual. Tom explained that he has recently been engaging in hifi volume wars with his next door neighbour. Not wanting to escalate this until he has his hands on weapons of mass destruction (DBLs?), we were limited most of the evening to playing the sistem at no more than 9’o clock on the 52. For me, this last minute instruction caused some panic shuffling of the Xenakis and Big Black to the back of the Sainsburys bag. On the positive side, this helped to avoid a repeat of the over-exuberance, consequent hangover and difficulties in writing up after the event.
Looking at other changes within the room I noticed that the SBLs had been refitted without the MDF platforms that he was using previously. Tom explained that the process of setting up the active sistem required several visits from his dealer over a period of weeks where small adjustments were made to the pots that vary the treble and mid drivers. In effectively tuning the sistem to the room, Tom felt that the MDF platforms had become redundant. So it seems that you have to invest in the very top level Naim amplification before you finally get treble and bass knobs. Apart from that no other changes were detected apart from the acoustic variation provided by the wandering of the stray dribbling cat mentioned in another thread.
Dave J was in generous mood, and nominated himself for the ‘large headphone’ listening position. I was fortunate to get the best listening position, with Mr Lees taking the sofa by the door giving the quickest escape route for a cigarette break should I attempt any disguised Birtwistle replay (maybe next visit). On the night, only the CDSII was given a spin and despite volume restrictions, the sistem was given a thorough testing on a broad range of material over 4 hours. Nick Lees will provide further details on the music. I will say that, we did have some brief high volume replay for the Rammstein track – at this point the cat left, disgusted with our musical taste.
So on to the sound of the sistem, it has to be said that Tom’s sistem has moved on significantly since our last visit. There are certain things that an active sistem do that I have not heard in any passive set-up, and it is quite difficult to explain what it does in words. The mid range is more compelling than just about any sistem I have heard. Certainly there were drastic improvement in the PRaT and dynamics. What is more difficult to describe is that the instruments develop an independent quality that seems to free them from the overall changes in dynamics – I said I was having trouble describing it – anyway I have not heard it in any a passive set-up. What was a real surprise were the improvements in the depth and imaging of the soundstage. Having been reminded of the active sound, I now understand why there are a few Active nutters out there that can’t get on with any passive sistem.
For me there was one negative of the sistem (I’ve not heard a perfect sistem yet), and that’s my reservations on the quality of the bass with SBLs. For me, it’s not just that SBLs are a relatively bass-light speaker, they seem to lack variation in the texture of the bass and also don’t quite integrate the bass with the rest of the sound. How much this is highlighted I think depends on the music that you play – on some music, the percussive quality of the bass really adds vitality to the music, on other pieces it sounds like they are simply missing detail. In the end all hifi requires some compromises, and I think Tom has found the best solution for his hifi and music preferences, and for the room he plays it in.
So once again, many thanks to Tom and Sarah-Jane for the wine, food and hospitality – particularly to Sarah-Jane for not being quite so efficient with the wine this time. I’ll write some more on the music when Nick supplies the track listing.
David
[This message was edited by David Hobbs-Mallyon on FRIDAY 17 January 2003 at 09:49.]
[This message was edited by David Hobbs-Mallyon on FRIDAY 17 January 2003 at 09:50.]
When I arrived the atmosphere was definitely slightly more understated than usual. Tom explained that he has recently been engaging in hifi volume wars with his next door neighbour. Not wanting to escalate this until he has his hands on weapons of mass destruction (DBLs?), we were limited most of the evening to playing the sistem at no more than 9’o clock on the 52. For me, this last minute instruction caused some panic shuffling of the Xenakis and Big Black to the back of the Sainsburys bag. On the positive side, this helped to avoid a repeat of the over-exuberance, consequent hangover and difficulties in writing up after the event.
Looking at other changes within the room I noticed that the SBLs had been refitted without the MDF platforms that he was using previously. Tom explained that the process of setting up the active sistem required several visits from his dealer over a period of weeks where small adjustments were made to the pots that vary the treble and mid drivers. In effectively tuning the sistem to the room, Tom felt that the MDF platforms had become redundant. So it seems that you have to invest in the very top level Naim amplification before you finally get treble and bass knobs. Apart from that no other changes were detected apart from the acoustic variation provided by the wandering of the stray dribbling cat mentioned in another thread.
Dave J was in generous mood, and nominated himself for the ‘large headphone’ listening position. I was fortunate to get the best listening position, with Mr Lees taking the sofa by the door giving the quickest escape route for a cigarette break should I attempt any disguised Birtwistle replay (maybe next visit). On the night, only the CDSII was given a spin and despite volume restrictions, the sistem was given a thorough testing on a broad range of material over 4 hours. Nick Lees will provide further details on the music. I will say that, we did have some brief high volume replay for the Rammstein track – at this point the cat left, disgusted with our musical taste.
So on to the sound of the sistem, it has to be said that Tom’s sistem has moved on significantly since our last visit. There are certain things that an active sistem do that I have not heard in any passive set-up, and it is quite difficult to explain what it does in words. The mid range is more compelling than just about any sistem I have heard. Certainly there were drastic improvement in the PRaT and dynamics. What is more difficult to describe is that the instruments develop an independent quality that seems to free them from the overall changes in dynamics – I said I was having trouble describing it – anyway I have not heard it in any a passive set-up. What was a real surprise were the improvements in the depth and imaging of the soundstage. Having been reminded of the active sound, I now understand why there are a few Active nutters out there that can’t get on with any passive sistem.
For me there was one negative of the sistem (I’ve not heard a perfect sistem yet), and that’s my reservations on the quality of the bass with SBLs. For me, it’s not just that SBLs are a relatively bass-light speaker, they seem to lack variation in the texture of the bass and also don’t quite integrate the bass with the rest of the sound. How much this is highlighted I think depends on the music that you play – on some music, the percussive quality of the bass really adds vitality to the music, on other pieces it sounds like they are simply missing detail. In the end all hifi requires some compromises, and I think Tom has found the best solution for his hifi and music preferences, and for the room he plays it in.
So once again, many thanks to Tom and Sarah-Jane for the wine, food and hospitality – particularly to Sarah-Jane for not being quite so efficient with the wine this time. I’ll write some more on the music when Nick supplies the track listing.
David
[This message was edited by David Hobbs-Mallyon on FRIDAY 17 January 2003 at 09:49.]
[This message was edited by David Hobbs-Mallyon on FRIDAY 17 January 2003 at 09:50.]
What bass is that? 
Sorry, couldn't resist
Sorry, couldn't resist
What bass is that?
Sorry, couldn't resist
Sorry, couldn't resist
Goodness 
Tom
Just Curious Tom, was this using the CD player, or on vinyl?
I'm running CDI/72/Hi-Cap/180/SBL's, and normal volume setting for CD replay, is around 8.30 - 9 o'clock. Once went to around 10 - 10.30, but didn't dare go louder, as a) neighbours, and b) concerns about blowing a driver.
I might well be wrong, but I thought 10.30ish was about it, re the onset of clipping. I assumed this because of a review in HiFi News/record review by Martin Colloms a few years back of 82/Hicap/180/SBL's where he stated maximum output was around 10.30 - 11 oclock.
Additionaly, at the time when I was evaluating/buying/ equipment, I was using the same electronics but with Epos 14's in use.
That particular combination definately started to show signs of running out of power/steam and the onset of audible clipping, or certainly what sounded like it, at around the 10.30 -11.00 ish mark.
With vinyl, I find I regularly use up to 11.00+, and once 1.00. But then the sensitivity is different, and also the output of the cartridge (MM) a lot lower.
I don't doubt your experiences at all; I'm curious as to other users experiences with SBL's with this one, as I don't want to be excessively paranoid about 'breaking' them, as they cost me an arm, and both legs, but don't want to unecessarily baby/neuter them either.
Thoughts anyone? - what have others experiences been with this. My room is approx 5x4metres, and solid construction.
Oh, and BTW, I'm a little excited about the rumour? re Naim bringing out some subs. Has anyone heard anything more about this, as it's news to me, but exciting news indeed.
Despite other threads/comments re lack of bass, I have no complaints re the SBL's in that regard whatsoever, and I listen to a great deal of classical pipe organ, amongst other genres, but a sub that would work with the SBL's would almost be a 'must have' for the additional useage of AV duties to which I also put the SBL's.
Hey, 2003 is starting to look good!
Cheers all,
John.
Populist thinking exalts the simplistic and the ordinary
quote:
Once, and only once I've had it playing at 4 o'clock (The plane crash on Pink Floyd's The Wall). That was loud. Too loud to listen to comfortably but not bad sonically. 2 was fine but normally I sit around 12 if the neighbours are out & I want volume. So far so good. The only downside is I can be heard at the end of the street. These sessions rarely last more than 20 minutes. Normal listenening is about 8:30
The Rammestein was played at 11:00. The rest of the Riders dem between 9 & 10
Tom
Just Curious Tom, was this using the CD player, or on vinyl?
I'm running CDI/72/Hi-Cap/180/SBL's, and normal volume setting for CD replay, is around 8.30 - 9 o'clock. Once went to around 10 - 10.30, but didn't dare go louder, as a) neighbours, and b) concerns about blowing a driver.
I might well be wrong, but I thought 10.30ish was about it, re the onset of clipping. I assumed this because of a review in HiFi News/record review by Martin Colloms a few years back of 82/Hicap/180/SBL's where he stated maximum output was around 10.30 - 11 oclock.
Additionaly, at the time when I was evaluating/buying/ equipment, I was using the same electronics but with Epos 14's in use.
That particular combination definately started to show signs of running out of power/steam and the onset of audible clipping, or certainly what sounded like it, at around the 10.30 -11.00 ish mark.
With vinyl, I find I regularly use up to 11.00+, and once 1.00. But then the sensitivity is different, and also the output of the cartridge (MM) a lot lower.
I don't doubt your experiences at all; I'm curious as to other users experiences with SBL's with this one, as I don't want to be excessively paranoid about 'breaking' them, as they cost me an arm, and both legs, but don't want to unecessarily baby/neuter them either.
Thoughts anyone? - what have others experiences been with this. My room is approx 5x4metres, and solid construction.
Oh, and BTW, I'm a little excited about the rumour? re Naim bringing out some subs. Has anyone heard anything more about this, as it's news to me, but exciting news indeed.
Despite other threads/comments re lack of bass, I have no complaints re the SBL's in that regard whatsoever, and I listen to a great deal of classical pipe organ, amongst other genres, but a sub that would work with the SBL's would almost be a 'must have' for the additional useage of AV duties to which I also put the SBL's.
Hey, 2003 is starting to look good!
Cheers all,
John.
Populist thinking exalts the simplistic and the ordinary
quote:
On the matter of bass I am more than happy with what the SBLs do and as they do everything else "just right" it is a very small concern. It's surprising how dominant a concern bass is too so many but if a sub will remove that one very small niggle I might investigate.
Tom,
Thanks for writing in, and your comments re the volume; I feel reassured now
I agree that bass is important to a lot of people, and I was one of them, given my prediliction for organ music, of which I'm a great fan. From that point of view, I'm at a loss other than room, or set-up problems to understand why some SBL owners have issues with the bass performance.
My SBL's were purchased to 'finish' a completely new System I built up about 6yrs ago, and my first ever Naim system at that.
First was the CD player, as I wanted a player that would at least equal my turntable in musical enjoyment. I was peeved that so much of the recordings I was into were only available on CD.
Next came a 72/180, to replace and elderly, but much loved Rait, a NZ made amp, finished in walnut, and a copy of a Radford design. Mosfet output devices, and a lovely burnished rich tonality. But that's another story.
The accuracy of instrumental/vocal timbre, and dynamics of the Naim was in another league.
Lastly speakers. Difficult, in that so much is personal, but I was painstaking in auditioning, as I had at the time a pair of the orginal B&W DM2A's which have a transimission line bass loading, and wonderful for organ. But, slow, plummy etc.
It would be no exaggeration to say that I listened to everything the dealer had to offer speakerwise, over about an 18mnth period whist I saved the $ for the new speakers, as I felt the old, but much loved B&W were very much the limiting factor in the new set up.
Favourities for a long time were the Epos 14's but a home audition saw them being a more sideways move over the B&W's as bass weight and extension on pipe organ was not to my satisfaction.
Epos 25's were heard, and felt excellent, but not enough of an improvement over the 14's to warrant the cost. To cut a long story short, my dealer went to the trouble of specially ordering in some SBL's for me to try, which is/was the most fantastic service, and my final choice came down to those, v's Isobariks, and Dynaudio Contours 1.8Mk 111's as I best remember the model number.
I had several very extensive auditions over a period of a few days, and came down very much in favour of the SBL's.
The reason I'm ranting on about this here, is because perhaps the most impressive thing about them was the quality of the bass, and in the light of others experiences being less than satisfactory.
Smooth, clean, detailed, articulate, weight, extension, timbral accuracy, lack of overhang & colouration, transient response etc, in short I thought then, and still do that they're quite superb in the bass, and amongst the best I've ever heard in that regard.
Interestingly, both HiFi News/Record Review, re Martin Colloms, and HiFi Choice did reviews a few years back, and measured. Which is always nice alongside subjective feelings IMHO.
The -6Db point, reference 1Khz, was 25HZ, and -8Db at 20HZ, which is really quite exceptional for their size, and almost certainly the gain from boundary reinforcement.
As an 32' organ stop has a fundemental resonance of 16Hz, at least I get to clearly hear the first harmonic at 32Hz, but I can comfortably say that they perform superbly on organ, and have had me at times thinking that adverse noises were emanating from them, only to find buzzing window panes, or doors in frames rattling etc.
And that's at GRANNY levels, as I too live in an apartment block and have to consider neighbours.
So to the detractors of SBL bass, all I can say is to perhaps look at either the room, or placement/setup issues, I love my bass, and it was a very important prerequisite for purchase, and I have no complaints whatsoever.
Anyway, end of rant/sermon
Didn't mean to go on, but hey, I love them, they're the best speakers I've ever owned, and amongst the very best I've ever heard over many years of being involved in/interested in HiFi and music when compared to other products at similar, and even higher price levels.
But for true infrasonics, re HT? Yeah, Naim, pls give us HT 'newbies' a brilliant sub to go with the rest of your excellent speakers. It would be a sonic match made in heaven, well for me anyway.
Cheers all, and thanx for putting up with the rant.
John.
Populist thinking exalts the simplistic and the ordinary
quote:
That's good, the organ doesn't usually reproduce well on cd. I'm actually enjoying this".
Yes, pipe organ sounds good through SBLs but if you really want to feel it
then you can't go past a pair of DBLs. Who needs a sub?