Interpretation of classical music
Posted by: mikeeschman on 22 July 2009
There are many ways to skin this cat. At the moment I am on the trail of one "flavor".
One current subculture has a number of striking characteristics. Among these are, in order of importance, faultless rhythm and pitch, color,
and a particularly striking clarity of line. What means are used to accomplish this; it does not matter. It is an amazing thing to hear.
I want to hear more of this.
Each decade or so, some new musical idea presents itself. I think this is unfolding before us, it is in some degree a reflection of us, and the way we are right now.
That's the way my library grows. An appetite for something more specific, like this developing subculture with the perfect rhythm, pitch and line. So I seek out things that have that "vibe", and so grows the collection.
Everybody has principles that guide selection. It would be interesting to read about them :-)
One current subculture has a number of striking characteristics. Among these are, in order of importance, faultless rhythm and pitch, color,
and a particularly striking clarity of line. What means are used to accomplish this; it does not matter. It is an amazing thing to hear.
I want to hear more of this.
Each decade or so, some new musical idea presents itself. I think this is unfolding before us, it is in some degree a reflection of us, and the way we are right now.
That's the way my library grows. An appetite for something more specific, like this developing subculture with the perfect rhythm, pitch and line. So I seek out things that have that "vibe", and so grows the collection.
Everybody has principles that guide selection. It would be interesting to read about them :-)
Posted on: 24 July 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:Originally posted by GFFJ:
It does seem that trumpet playing may yet have some way to go to be generally as fine as it seems that it was in Bach's time.
Today's trumpet players are the best that ever lived.
Posted on: 24 July 2009 by u5227470736789439
In your view.
I might be tempted to agree that they may arguably be the best since the advent of recording, but I remain to be convinced that there is any evidence that modern trumpet players are as good as were to be found in Bach and Handel's time.
ATB from George
I might be tempted to agree that they may arguably be the best since the advent of recording, but I remain to be convinced that there is any evidence that modern trumpet players are as good as were to be found in Bach and Handel's time.
ATB from George
Posted on: 24 July 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:Originally posted by GFFJ:
In your view.
I might be tempted to agree that they may arguably be the best since the advent of recording, but I remain to be convinced that there is any evidence that modern trumpet players are as good as were to be found in Bach and Handel's time.
ATB from George
Give this a listen, it'll change your mind :
Bach - Brandenburg Concertos / Il Giardino armonico
Posted on: 24 July 2009 by u5227470736789439
Dear Mike,
I know what can be achieved on recordings, and I have one recorded performance that is superb on the valveless trumpet ... by the HM Linde Consort.
This is quite different from the concert situation where more often than not the standards is lower by a big margin, and the instrument used is the easier to play modern high Bach trumpet fitted with valves, and not the Bach period instrument.
ATB from George
I know what can be achieved on recordings, and I have one recorded performance that is superb on the valveless trumpet ... by the HM Linde Consort.
This is quite different from the concert situation where more often than not the standards is lower by a big margin, and the instrument used is the easier to play modern high Bach trumpet fitted with valves, and not the Bach period instrument.
ATB from George
Posted on: 24 July 2009 by mikeeschman
Dear George,
I have to comment that the most enjoyable conversations I've had with you are when we discuss any area of performance practice. I hope it happens more often in future.
I don't know if you saw my post on the trumpet players of the Louisiana Philharmonic, but these guys maintain a full battery of trumpets in every bore and style, including rotary valve trumpets, and are particularly careful to match the instrument to the music. If they play Handel or Bach, the small bore horns come out. But if its Bruckner or Mahler, the large bore rotary valve cannons come out. They even went out (the entire section) and bought horns that are identically fitted out, to achieve a more uniform sectional sound.
One of these fellows is an aquaitance, and over beers at the bass trombonist's house, I have witnessed lively discussion with woodwind and string players about how his gear fits the orchestra's voicing.
Maybe it's a southern thing, showing that kind of consideration to your fellow musicians.
By the way, the Louisiana Philharmonic sounds terrific :-)
I have to comment that the most enjoyable conversations I've had with you are when we discuss any area of performance practice. I hope it happens more often in future.
I don't know if you saw my post on the trumpet players of the Louisiana Philharmonic, but these guys maintain a full battery of trumpets in every bore and style, including rotary valve trumpets, and are particularly careful to match the instrument to the music. If they play Handel or Bach, the small bore horns come out. But if its Bruckner or Mahler, the large bore rotary valve cannons come out. They even went out (the entire section) and bought horns that are identically fitted out, to achieve a more uniform sectional sound.
One of these fellows is an aquaitance, and over beers at the bass trombonist's house, I have witnessed lively discussion with woodwind and string players about how his gear fits the orchestra's voicing.
Maybe it's a southern thing, showing that kind of consideration to your fellow musicians.
By the way, the Louisiana Philharmonic sounds terrific :-)
Posted on: 24 July 2009 by u5227470736789439
Dear Mike,
Strange as it may be to read it, I enjoy our conversations precisely because we do not exactly agree!
Please forgive me if I express my view with bluntness, based of experience..
It is not that I cannot see a different view [as having value], but rather that I think a different view should be challenged with as much robust good humour as experience allows and human nature can manage, as otherwise hypocrasy and patronising is involved.
I know tha the best players have a range of instruments that in performance match the question asked. Evenm I ran two double basses, abn would borrowe appropriate instruments for any special concert.
My favourite bass player friend [now nearer 90 than 80] had six double basses ranging from an Italian baroque instrument from about 1620 to three new [1950s] but varied instrumenty made by Lant, Seven Oaks, Kent - a man who escaped Nazi Germaony before 1939 - and also one great English bass from the 1780s by Fendt.
Each was used according to the demands of the work in hand. He was the first bass at the ROH CG, and we formed a fine desk in his days after his retirement to Leominster in Herefodshire. From his retirement from the Woolwich Arsenal Band during the War [where he was blown up by a UXB while on stretcher-bearer duries in 1945] he joined the Boyd Neil Orchestra and toured Europe as the first emmissary of the British Council in the War-torn remains of a great civilistaion.
This had its funny moment as the band travelled from Finland to Sweden on a little cargo ship, and the two basses were stowed on deck in their coffins as they were too large to stow in the hold. The basses duly froze as the temperature dropped to minus twenty as the ship crossed the Baltic Sea, and his oistument was temporarily ruined because the animal glue simply fell apart, and the basses co;apsed in the coffin cases.
In Swedewn he [and the other bass payer] borrowed basses from Stockholm Phil. His instrument was rebuilt in England, and by 1949 he was a palyer in Boult's LPO. He made the famous LPO tour of Russia in 1955 and immediastely after that joined the ROH CG where he stayed till he retired at the aged of 69.
I mention this only by context because he paid me the finest direct compliment ever in musical terms, I ever had beyond being fixed for many great freelence jobs. Tbough I was valued in the freelance world for a few years, he siad that I was actually a better player than he was in 1949! He also passed the judgeent [which I knew was right]that we played as one big bass rather than two playing together. We used to share the job of playing second and turning the pages according to the gig! I think it would not be too much to recall the time I took [conducted] a rehearsal for a concert where the conductor trusted me to sort out the remaining little details, and his comment was that I ggave every beat clearly and corretly, but more than that let the music fly without any seeming intervention. That evening he still insisted that I lead us as a pair int the actual concert.
Now this was in an amateur setting, where as clearly my fee-paid days were not amateur at all, but because of a left hand injury which got progressively worse, I resigned my professional aranegements, including teaching the bass at a high level. Please do not think I am full of hubris over being a teacher, a friend of a really great player, or even a recipient of real fees for proper concerts. I am not not. I cut it out before any would critcise my playing and so lost as few friends by stgopping so abruptly.
It was a clean break, but the experiences gave me some insight into real comncert givingat a high level. I am not pulling rank by letting you know this but rather admitting that if we played together it would be you playing with someone hwo sees no value inp petending to be less than he was in music.
Now all that is left for me is listening. That brings its significant lack of patience sometimes, for whidfh I apologise.
Begining to think that should stop being quite so seriosu about performance pratice. Even now it is moving away fron what I knew and admired.
ATB from George
Strange as it may be to read it, I enjoy our conversations precisely because we do not exactly agree!
Please forgive me if I express my view with bluntness, based of experience..
It is not that I cannot see a different view [as having value], but rather that I think a different view should be challenged with as much robust good humour as experience allows and human nature can manage, as otherwise hypocrasy and patronising is involved.
I know tha the best players have a range of instruments that in performance match the question asked. Evenm I ran two double basses, abn would borrowe appropriate instruments for any special concert.
My favourite bass player friend [now nearer 90 than 80] had six double basses ranging from an Italian baroque instrument from about 1620 to three new [1950s] but varied instrumenty made by Lant, Seven Oaks, Kent - a man who escaped Nazi Germaony before 1939 - and also one great English bass from the 1780s by Fendt.
Each was used according to the demands of the work in hand. He was the first bass at the ROH CG, and we formed a fine desk in his days after his retirement to Leominster in Herefodshire. From his retirement from the Woolwich Arsenal Band during the War [where he was blown up by a UXB while on stretcher-bearer duries in 1945] he joined the Boyd Neil Orchestra and toured Europe as the first emmissary of the British Council in the War-torn remains of a great civilistaion.
This had its funny moment as the band travelled from Finland to Sweden on a little cargo ship, and the two basses were stowed on deck in their coffins as they were too large to stow in the hold. The basses duly froze as the temperature dropped to minus twenty as the ship crossed the Baltic Sea, and his oistument was temporarily ruined because the animal glue simply fell apart, and the basses co;apsed in the coffin cases.
In Swedewn he [and the other bass payer] borrowed basses from Stockholm Phil. His instrument was rebuilt in England, and by 1949 he was a palyer in Boult's LPO. He made the famous LPO tour of Russia in 1955 and immediastely after that joined the ROH CG where he stayed till he retired at the aged of 69.
I mention this only by context because he paid me the finest direct compliment ever in musical terms, I ever had beyond being fixed for many great freelence jobs. Tbough I was valued in the freelance world for a few years, he siad that I was actually a better player than he was in 1949! He also passed the judgeent [which I knew was right]that we played as one big bass rather than two playing together. We used to share the job of playing second and turning the pages according to the gig! I think it would not be too much to recall the time I took [conducted] a rehearsal for a concert where the conductor trusted me to sort out the remaining little details, and his comment was that I ggave every beat clearly and corretly, but more than that let the music fly without any seeming intervention. That evening he still insisted that I lead us as a pair int the actual concert.
Now this was in an amateur setting, where as clearly my fee-paid days were not amateur at all, but because of a left hand injury which got progressively worse, I resigned my professional aranegements, including teaching the bass at a high level. Please do not think I am full of hubris over being a teacher, a friend of a really great player, or even a recipient of real fees for proper concerts. I am not not. I cut it out before any would critcise my playing and so lost as few friends by stgopping so abruptly.
It was a clean break, but the experiences gave me some insight into real comncert givingat a high level. I am not pulling rank by letting you know this but rather admitting that if we played together it would be you playing with someone hwo sees no value inp petending to be less than he was in music.
Now all that is left for me is listening. That brings its significant lack of patience sometimes, for whidfh I apologise.
Begining to think that should stop being quite so seriosu about performance pratice. Even now it is moving away fron what I knew and admired.
ATB from George
Posted on: 24 July 2009 by Naijeru
quote:Originally posted by GFFJ:
I might be tempted to agree that they may arguably be the best since the advent of recording, but I remain to be convinced that there is any evidence that modern trumpet players are as good as were to be found in Bach and Handel's time.
How, um, do you compare such things?
Posted on: 24 July 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:Originally posted by Naijeru:quote:Originally posted by GFFJ:
I might be tempted to agree that they may arguably be the best since the advent of recording, but I remain to be convinced that there is any evidence that modern trumpet players are as good as were to be found in Bach and Handel's time.
How, um, do you compare such things?
With your lips, ears and your mind's eye :-)
Posted on: 25 July 2009 by Naijeru
quote:Originally posted by mikeeschman:quote:Originally posted by Naijeru:quote:Originally posted by GFFJ:
I might be tempted to agree that they may arguably be the best since the advent of recording, but I remain to be convinced that there is any evidence that modern trumpet players are as good as were to be found in Bach and Handel's time.
How, um, do you compare such things?
With your lips, ears and your mind's eye :-)
Riiight... more mind's eye than ears I hope? Unless I've stumbled into a forum of vampires or something.
Posted on: 25 July 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:Originally posted by Naijeru:
Riiight... more mind's eye than ears I hope? Unless I've stumbled into a forum of vampires or something.
it's a feat of the imagination, aided by some knowledge of the music and its history.
Posted on: 25 July 2009 by mudwolf
This has been a very interesting discussion for me. Thanks guys
glenn
glenn
Posted on: 25 July 2009 by mikeeschman
In preparing the performance of any musical work, the performer ideally reaches a mental state where he can look across the centuries and see the composer's intent with pristine clarity.
Since a performance is a collaboration between the composer and the performer, each such act is unique onto itself. It is a chemistry as various as the shape of snowflakes. When the composer and performer turn to view each others souls across time and space, they have a personal communication that adheres to a logic all its own.
In these moments of recreation, it is possible to visualize what performers of the composer's age might have done, especially if the performer spent some time in preparation reflecting on the practices of the day. In emulating the practice of the day, today's performers have the opportunity to feel and understand what the original performers experienced and felt.
If that opportunity is seized for all it is worth, then the performer can hear and feel in his body what an ideal performance might be like.
That is how a realistic idea of what the trumpet players of Bach's time might have played like. They almost certainly played flawlessly, because they played for the man himself, rather than relying on dusty books and imperfect recordings, and how could anyone give less than perfection when playing under the gaze of Bach's mind and heart :-)
Since a performance is a collaboration between the composer and the performer, each such act is unique onto itself. It is a chemistry as various as the shape of snowflakes. When the composer and performer turn to view each others souls across time and space, they have a personal communication that adheres to a logic all its own.
In these moments of recreation, it is possible to visualize what performers of the composer's age might have done, especially if the performer spent some time in preparation reflecting on the practices of the day. In emulating the practice of the day, today's performers have the opportunity to feel and understand what the original performers experienced and felt.
If that opportunity is seized for all it is worth, then the performer can hear and feel in his body what an ideal performance might be like.
That is how a realistic idea of what the trumpet players of Bach's time might have played like. They almost certainly played flawlessly, because they played for the man himself, rather than relying on dusty books and imperfect recordings, and how could anyone give less than perfection when playing under the gaze of Bach's mind and heart :-)
Posted on: 25 July 2009 by mikeeschman
I'm listening to Johnny Adams "One Foot in the Blues" with a friend I play duets with. I am taken with the way Johnny shapes a phrase. Just like with human speech, you have to pay particular attention to the way the first syllable of each word is pronounced, to understand the emotional thrust behind the words; i.e. to hear the intent.
My friend wondered if there was a bass player. The group includes a Hammond B3 organ, and he thought it might be carrying the bass line in "Baby don't you cry". Immediately I said NO, there is a bass player. I knew because I could hear that the bass line was being "plucked". Organs just don't do that sound.
And that "plucked" line was being phrased like the singer, with the emphasis on the first syllable of each word.
If you can hear things like that, the performers on your recordings will turn about to face you. If you can hear things like that, you can have a dialogue - secrets will be revealed :-)
News flash! Update! There is no bass player listed on the Johnny Adams album "One Foot in the Blues"! My wife thinks the Hammond B3 player, Dr. Lonnie Smith, is using pedal tones to get that convincing "thunk" on the beginning of a note. So I am going to look at Gambit, and see where we can go hear him. We all want to see if he can really do that :-)
I love New Orleans ...
The conversations this little exploration engendered have been refreshing and invigorating, adding spice to the possibility of a live encounter.
My friend wondered if there was a bass player. The group includes a Hammond B3 organ, and he thought it might be carrying the bass line in "Baby don't you cry". Immediately I said NO, there is a bass player. I knew because I could hear that the bass line was being "plucked". Organs just don't do that sound.
And that "plucked" line was being phrased like the singer, with the emphasis on the first syllable of each word.
If you can hear things like that, the performers on your recordings will turn about to face you. If you can hear things like that, you can have a dialogue - secrets will be revealed :-)
News flash! Update! There is no bass player listed on the Johnny Adams album "One Foot in the Blues"! My wife thinks the Hammond B3 player, Dr. Lonnie Smith, is using pedal tones to get that convincing "thunk" on the beginning of a note. So I am going to look at Gambit, and see where we can go hear him. We all want to see if he can really do that :-)
I love New Orleans ...
The conversations this little exploration engendered have been refreshing and invigorating, adding spice to the possibility of a live encounter.
Posted on: 26 July 2009 by mikeeschman
No luck in Gambit. Wrote to Dr. Lonnie Smith's manager to get a list of local play dates.
Posted on: 26 July 2009 by Florestan
quote:They almost certainly played flawlessly, because they played for the man himself, rather than relying on dusty books and imperfect recordings, and how could anyone give less than perfection when playing under the gaze of Bach's mind and heart :-)
Mike,
While I can agree with the spirit and intention of the preceding paragraphs above I really have trouble accepting this quoted ending.
Although I "idolize" J.S. Bach myself (in that what he has given the world (and me) has directly impacted my life in a positive and meaningful way) I think it is a mistake to take this sentiment too far ( because they played for the man himself) . The main reason that Bach himself was so disciplined and had such a prolific output was that he was writing music to express his relationship to and for God, his creator. This was his main motivation and it proved to be enough. Most, if not all, his scores were signed "Soli deo Gloria." He himself said that if others were as disciplined and industrious as he then the results would be the same (or as good). He had a work ethic. I also admire his humbleness.
Is their any evidence that performances of Bach's music in his time (and those prior to the era of recording)were flawless or perfect?
quote:They almost certainly played flawlessly
The question arises as to whether you mean "note perfectly" or "interpreted flawlessly."
As to being note perfect, every musicians desire, I know, but you'd have to agree that no human is perfect or can play flawlessly every performance. I think perfection has become a recent phenomenon or idea (due to the practice of editing recordings so that now everyone believes perfection is the norm and they demand it). Bach would write a new Cantata almost every Sunday. The ink was probably barely dry when most of these performers were playing for these events so I imagine they were all very good sight-readers at best. I think in our time we worship perfection and possibly in the past they might have been more concerned with intention or the musical experience itself (IMHO).
If you speak of perfection from the sense of interpretation, this is not realistically possible either. When one looks at the stars in the night sky and wonders what is out there and how to describe it, is their a right or wrong answer? Interpretation is that in the same sense. So long as music touches your soul and you are trying to discover the answers I think you are on the right track. You will never get to the end but part of the joy is in the journey itself. It is about discovery but the more you learn the less you realize that you know.
quote:imperfect recordings
What does imperfect mean? I understand that it is different strokes for different folks and we don't have to like everything out there but how can someone's "interpretation" of something be imperfect? Interpreting someone else's music is all that any one of us can do.
Regards,
Doug
Posted on: 26 July 2009 by mikeeschman
Doug, what I was trying to get at is the experience of learning to play a new piece of music.
Once you get past learning the notes, and you begin to feel how things fit together, I feel you begin to have a sense of how other musicians who attempted that same music felt about it.
And my mind always wanders into speculation about how the first musician to play that piece responded to the composer's direction.
In my mind's eye, more often than not, i feel myself in that musician's position once I have "broken a sweat".
And about perfection. For a while I studied with Ray Crisera, who is the best trumpet player I have ever heard in person. He played so many services over his career, and I am convinced he never played a note that was "false" in any way, and always at lessons his execution was perfect. He told me anyone could do that, given the opportunity. His opportunity was with the NBC Symphony under Toscanini. They would play commercial whatever all day in the studio 40 hours a week, then give a nighttime concert with Toscanini. According to him, it became a natural thing, to play perfectly, because they played all the time.
Everything about comprehending music is the result of reflection. My refection always incorporates the "way back machine". What was it like when this music was fresh and new, and how did the players respond to the challenge?
Tackling the Brandenburg 2nd on a natural trumpet; how can you not wonder how the first trumpet player dealt with it? Given Bach's output, I think he dealt with it very much the same way Ray Crisera did, because I think his musical life played out the same way.
Players who play all the time have a different experience than other musicians. I believe they break through to a place where the experience of music is more immediate and direct, because it is a continuous event for them.
One final note : Perfection is more easily achieved on a single line instrument. Pianist have much more insurmountable obstacles to a perfect execution than do single line instruments.
Where the pianist gets his advantage is in comparison to the orchestra. Is it easier to believe that 120 people achieved a common purpose, or that an individual had that much control over his hands?
Once you get past learning the notes, and you begin to feel how things fit together, I feel you begin to have a sense of how other musicians who attempted that same music felt about it.
And my mind always wanders into speculation about how the first musician to play that piece responded to the composer's direction.
In my mind's eye, more often than not, i feel myself in that musician's position once I have "broken a sweat".
And about perfection. For a while I studied with Ray Crisera, who is the best trumpet player I have ever heard in person. He played so many services over his career, and I am convinced he never played a note that was "false" in any way, and always at lessons his execution was perfect. He told me anyone could do that, given the opportunity. His opportunity was with the NBC Symphony under Toscanini. They would play commercial whatever all day in the studio 40 hours a week, then give a nighttime concert with Toscanini. According to him, it became a natural thing, to play perfectly, because they played all the time.
Everything about comprehending music is the result of reflection. My refection always incorporates the "way back machine". What was it like when this music was fresh and new, and how did the players respond to the challenge?
Tackling the Brandenburg 2nd on a natural trumpet; how can you not wonder how the first trumpet player dealt with it? Given Bach's output, I think he dealt with it very much the same way Ray Crisera did, because I think his musical life played out the same way.
Players who play all the time have a different experience than other musicians. I believe they break through to a place where the experience of music is more immediate and direct, because it is a continuous event for them.
One final note : Perfection is more easily achieved on a single line instrument. Pianist have much more insurmountable obstacles to a perfect execution than do single line instruments.
Where the pianist gets his advantage is in comparison to the orchestra. Is it easier to believe that 120 people achieved a common purpose, or that an individual had that much control over his hands?