Speeding on the M4 in Wiltshire (II)

It ought to be possible to do a deaths/kilometre comparison between various countries in the EU. Each country has different traffic densities/camera use/visual police presence.

Simple psychology suggests that frustration with high traffic densities will produce a leaden foot when the traffic ever clears. The child finally released from the classroom dashes out into the playground syndrome.

I doubt there is one of us who doesn't feel the desire to "press on" when we have been baulked by slow moving traffic.

If only you'd jump on bikes like the Danes do you could cut traffic congestion considerably. Average speeds would rise, reducing frustration. But no, you do insist on taking the car and joining the endless queues to nowhere. Now using a people carrier of course. Which is worse in all respects since they need so much room and much better drivers/parkers. There's a whole morning's entertainment to be had just watching them juggle their juggernoughts in the supermarket carparks with line spacing designed for minis.

You couldn't make it up!

quote:

There's a whole morning's entertainment to be had just watching them juggle their juggernoughts in the supermarket carparks with line spacing designed for minis.

Couldn't agree more just make sure your vehicle is well out of the way though.

H

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Toy:
Andy C, Please ask Van the Man your question here...

Liberalism can work and I think we could also see falls in road deaths and injuries by relaxing speed limits and their enforcement.

Why not combine the two? Liberlise drinking while driving!

Stephen

quote:

Originally posted by Stephen Bennett:
Liberlise drinking while driving!

Hic!

why thank you steve,

quote:

if it is a genuine reason that the patrol car is on it's way to a life or death incident then fair enough, but tell me, how many are life and death?

van the man, this bit is meant to be sarcastic : So you can predict the future - would you consider a career in law enforcement?

Seriously, you are quite right in that for every incident my colleagues have to rush to that there is nothing happening when they get there, the next one shows they should have done exactly what they did - got there bloody quickly.

However alot of the info that is then used to authorise officers to blue light to incidents comes from.... you guessed it, a public caller! Mmm

andy c!

Proper training? (for the public)

I remember as chief sixer in the cubs having to use a public telephone as training in making emergency calls. This was the first time I'd ever held the horrible, cold and smelly handset. It was covered in condensation by the time the whole pack had used it! Yeuch!

Probably the first time in my life I was tongue-tied! (though thankfully not the last)

My wife prays nightly that I am never required to be a witness. (I'd swear pink was blue!)

Another car on its roof on our way to the shops! That's seven in the last year on our rural road. (I think) 50kph/30mph just there too!

quote:

Originally posted by andy c:
why thank you steve,

quote:

if it is a genuine reason that the patrol car is on it's way to a life or death incident then fair enough, but tell me, how many are life and death?

van the man, this bit is meant to be sarcastic : So you can predict the future - would you consider a career in law enforcement?

Seriously, you are quite right in that for every incident my colleagues have to rush to that there is nothing happening when they get there, the next one shows they should have done exactly what they did - got there bloody quickly.

However alot of the info that is then used to authorise officers to blue light to incidents comes from.... you guessed it, a public caller! Mmm

andy c!

Andy what I was getting at was there are police drivers who put the foot down for no other reason that a testosterone buzz, you agree?
So, when these stories appear in the news and the press, ie police driver caught speeding for no apparent reason gets off without so much as a reprimand tell me how joe public is meant to respond? what example is it showing? we are told by the police that speed kills, but it seems appropriate for some of them to get away with it, is that consistency? I do not think so.
I am not for a moment suggesting that speed should not be used in a case of life or death, but should not be used because some rodney has woken late and has to get to a meeting or in the case of a stolen car which insurance companies pay out on anyway, far better for car manufacturers to improve vehicle security or the owner to actually lock their car or not leave keys in the ignition than have someone hounded into a brick wall, it does not solve the problem and causes more division between the family of the dead driver and the police.

van,

interestingly enough i am for the need for officers to justify exceeding speed limits even when on face value the call warrants it!

I am also for the correct trial of the officer who was doing 100+ mph 'testing' the car... So as the courts can decide on it's merit.

andy c!

I'm off the Bristol tomorrow, but I hope not to be tempting into speeding along the M4.

I never actually seen a Tally van on the bridges, but you never know, do you?

DS

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Toy:
Meanwhile, relaxing the drinking laws has resulted in a 21% fall in alcohol-related violent crime and a 14% reduction in woundings. These falls cannot be attributed to a greater police presence as there were more police around for Christmas 2004 period too.

I'm afraid I really can't be bothered to get involved in the speeding side of this thread - I've been there and it just seems to get pointlessly nasty. No-one can ever "win" an argument on an internet forum.

But as someone who works in the booze trade I was very genuinely concerned and worried, even guilty-feeling perhaps, about the level of reaction to the new licencing laws last year. I can hardly pretend to speak for everyone in my trade of course (and I am invloved in a rarified high-end specialist side of it), but I think I share the majority feeling in having thought that it was press over-reaction, anti-government feeling and just an excuse for sensationalism.

However as the snowball rolled on I seriously began to give credence to the idea that perhaps I was being blinkered and really the relaxation of drinking rules would result in more people becoming addicted, injured, violent, road murderers, wife beaters, pavement pukers and all the other paranoid conclusions to which the, er, more user-friendly sized of our media had jumped.

None of this has come to pass (as I originally believed) and if your figures are right, Steve (and I have no reason to doubt them) then the "continental drinking" model may actually have exerted an influence. The change in the law has, it seems, at this brief point in its journey, to have worked beneficially.

Is it not the job of a responsible media therefore to come clean and admit as such, even showing some sort of contrition towards the government who certainly lost ground in doing something they genuinely believed was the right thing to do (and have since been proved correct)? Heavens knows I am no fan of Blair, but I fear we are in danger of simply becoming run by the media, and that is a long way off being the democracy I thought existed.

Sorry to hi-jack the thread however briefly, so I'll go off and get riotously pissed now. Fine wine only, of course.

Cheers

Rod

People who have never got a speeding fine are people who have never been caught speeding NOT people who don't speed. Necessarily.
Oops.

quote:

Originally posted by andy c:
van,

interestingly enough i am for the need for officers to justify exceeding speed limits even when on face value the call warrants it!

I am also for the correct trial of the officer who was doing 100+ mph 'testing' the car... So as the courts can decide on it's merit.

andy c!

Looks like we're in agreement with them two.
On the invitation to a career in law enforcement I will take a rain check, I did my service for queen and country in the army.
I just see a time when the already decreased police presence will be more decreased by an increase in cso's, i will plead ignorance on this one but is a cso paid less than a full time fully trained bobby? any less priviledges? because as always with this cost cutting government, ie class assistants, it all comes down not to what the public want, ie more proper bobbies on the beat, but to cost.
Best wishes

quote:

People who have never got a speeding fine are people who have never been caught speeding NOT people who don't speed. Necessarily.
Oops.

True. The only people who never speed fall into three categories:

1) They have nowhere specific to go, or be by any given time.

2) They are drivers paid by the hour.

3) They've got 11 points on their licence.

The first two tend to be rather sanctimonious about their blind obedience and regard themselves as safe drivers - which of course they may well be...

rod,

My source re. fall in alcohol-related crime was an article in the Independent last week.

I knew all along that the change in our licensing laws would bring about a reduction in social disorder. I even made a comment about police officers being afraid of losing their overtime...

The reason is nothing to do with any "continental culture" but is one of simple logistics - we've got rid of the drinkers' rush hours. Fewer people in the streets in taxi queues, take-aways etc. reduces the potential for alcohol-fueled conflict. Only idiots who've never lived away fromn these foggy shores could fail to see that.

As for alcohol consumption, I doubt this will change either as people drink the amounts they want anyway including at home before and/or after going out.

steve,

I don't wish to be pedantic, but the other category you have missed is those that 'choose' not to speed etc (or look at their speedo periodically and adjust their speed accordingly).

Re yur comment re behaviour due to drink legislation changing, It may not have got worse 'cos it was already bad in the first place. I was out amongst it last night, and the behaviour I saw needed some calm colleagues, with commendable patience and discretion.

regards

andy c!

I've visited Mansfield a couple of times and worked with a guy from there when I was a teacher. It's a rough ol' place.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Toy:

quote:

People who have never got a speeding fine are people who have never been caught speeding NOT people who don't speed. Necessarily.
Oops.

True. The only people who never speed fall into three categories:

1) They have nowhere specific to go, or be by any given time.

2) They are drivers paid by the hour.

3) They've got 11 points on their licence.

The first two tend to be rather sanctimonious about their blind obedience and regard themselves as safe drivers - which of course they may well be...

rod,

My source re. fall in alcohol-related crime was an article in the Independent last week.

I knew all along that the change in our licensing laws would bring about a reduction in social disorder. I even made a comment about police officers being afraid of losing their overtime...

The reason is nothing to do with any "continental culture" but is one of simple logistics - we've got rid of the drinkers' rush hours. Fewer people in the streets in taxi queues, take-aways etc. reduces the potential for alcohol-fueled conflict. Only idiots who've never lived away fromn these foggy shores could fail to see that.

As for alcohol consumption, I doubt this will change either as people drink the amounts they want anyway including at home before and/or after going out.

Steve, on your first point, if you have somewhere specific to go you plan ahead don't you? I am not claiming to be the most organised person around, but if I need to be in birmingham for a set time I look into the journey and one off emergency situations aside I allow plenty of time to complete the journey without speeding.
So for example, if you know from the start that it would take you an hour to safely do that journey, keeping to the speed limits, then you leave a good hour and half before hand, well I would, there are people who under the scenario I quote leave say 45 minutes to do the very same journey then wonder why a speeding ticket drops on the doorstep or they're pulled over hence making themselves even more later.
On the subject of drinking laws, I would say that it is a " continental culture " the way we drink, indeed this was looked into when the subject of extended hours was brought up.
You only have to look back in history about 100 years ago in the history books to see that drunkedness is no new thing in britain, it has gone on for years, hundreds of years, so I would say that it is in part " cultural "
What has changed is local councils looking at how they can deal with the problem, you are never going to eliminate violence related to drink, because while one guy who has had 10 pints will want to fight everyone in the pub another bloke will just want to go home and fall asleep.
I cannot speak for every council, but where I live, they introduced a scheme over xmas where by they had buses waiting for clubbers at the end of the night, so in part they removed the possibility of violence in public, it could be argued that all you are doing is shifting the potential for violence away from the city centre and I would agree, but it seemed to have gone down well and now they are talking about keeping the scheme running, some taxi drivers are not too happy but there you go.
Best wishes.

quote:

I cannot speak for every council, but where I live, they introduced a scheme over xmas where by they had buses waiting for clubbers at the end of the night, so in part they removed the possibility of violence in public, it could be argued that all you are doing is shifting the potential for violence away from the city centre and I would agree, but it seemed to have gone down well and now they are talking about keeping the scheme running, some taxi drivers are not too happy but there you go.

We have the busses jobby at our place on fri and sat nites - it does a good thing as you see loads of punters rushing for the bus as its cheaper etc. There are still clients for the taxis...

quote:

So for example, if you know from the start that it would take you an hour to safely do that journey, keeping to the speed limits, then you leave a good hour and half before hand, well I would, there are people who under the scenario I quote leave say 45 minutes to do the very same journey then wonder why a speeding ticket drops on the doorstep or they're pulled over hence making themselves even more later.

Time is money. Adding an extra half an hour to an hour journey is wasting time.

I could arrive in Edinburgh 4 hours later or 5 hours later. A 4 hour journey is less tiring.

quote:

Time is money. Adding an extra half an hour to an hour journey is wasting time.

I could arrive in Edinburgh 4 hours later or 5 hours later. A 4 hour journey is less tiring.

Time is life, Steve, and for once this excuse is a bit poor IMV. It's a clear and typical indication of the way some things are changing re time being more important, over consideration for others.

regards

andy c!

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Toy:

quote:

So for example, if you know from the start that it would take you an hour to safely do that journey, keeping to the speed limits, then you leave a good hour and half before hand, well I would, there are people who under the scenario I quote leave say 45 minutes to do the very same journey then wonder why a speeding ticket drops on the doorstep or they're pulled over hence making themselves even more later.

Time is money. Adding an extra half an hour to an hour journey is wasting time.

I could arrive in Edinburgh 4 hours later or 5 hours later. A 4 hour journey is less tiring.

Time is money steve? I am not sure where you are coming from in that quote, with all due respect, I am not being nasty.
An extra half hour to an hour journey is wasting time? ok go with that thought, but when you or someone else through this kind of attitude end up in hostpital or the nearest graveyard if you survive you will have more than half an hour to think over this time is money mullarky.
A four hour journey is less tiring? maybe so if you are sticking to 70mph, and stopping for a coffee somewhere in the middle, but if you are taking 4 hours to do a trip that should be safely done by sticking to 70mph in 5 hours then you are obviously speeding, as far as I know if you've got your foot to the floor your reactions have to be spot on, wouldnt this attention to hazards be making you more tired?
Sorry if I sound nasty but I am not meaning it that way.

Steve,

did you get chance to see sky news last night, re the report of alcohol related violence to ambulance staff?

andy c!

This whole business about rushing journeys and speeding is fascinating.

Sir Adrain Boult had a very simple solution to the problem: Set out in timely fashion! I follow this advice, and then I am either early or get to my destination unstressed at least on time. The result is that my license is still pristine after twenty seven years. I intend to keep it so. Also I have never had a moving accident, though I have been hit stationary, once, when van never even saw me before piling in to my tail. I had stopped to let cows cross the road.

A tip for stress-free motorway driving, but it does require a certain degree of patience till you get used to it: Find a lorry going at a steady sixty miles an hour, and tail it at quarter of a mile. This allows anyone to overtake one's self without tucking in too close to the the lorry or one's self, gets better fuel economy, means there is no need for the constant brake accelerate thing, and still makes very reasonable average speeds over long distances. You arrive as fresh as if there had been no traffic in the road besides one's self!

My two pence worth. Fredrik

I'm sorry, but 90 mph through Cumbria, Dumfries and Galloway on 3 lane empty motorways is never going to be dangerous in dry conditions in a modern car. The Talivans along the above only help Gordon Brown to unbalance our books.

Trundling a long at 69 and having to take a break because you are bored is not just less fun...

The Germans have no speed restrictions on equivalent strethches of motorway and yet their safety record is still second after ours in the EU.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Toy:
I'm sorry, but 90 mph through Cumbria, Dumfries and Galloway on 3 lane empty motorways is never going to be dangerous in dry conditions in a modern car. ...

But Dear Steve,

It is still illegal! We cannot cherry pick the laws we ourrselves consider assonine, and disobey them at will.

I generally keep out this sort of thing and only threw in a suggestion from someone who has tried hard to keep the motor laws, and has found a completely satisfactory way to comply that produces stress-free motoring as well. I hate motorways anyway as the fat-heads who speed are just going so much faster than on A-roads! All roads are full of people who consider themselves good enough at driving to free themselves of the responsibility to drive legally and with consideration for those who do. Personally I would like to see three speeding offenses lead to a life ban, but then no doubt others would say that is a bit severe!

All the best from Fredrik

As a naturally slow driver with too much free time, such a draconian ban won't affect you and your livelihood.

After 18 years of driving, 11 of them driving a taxi I still have an unblemished record. In that time I've had about 5 collisions, all below 5 mph.

The law is an ass.

Tailgating is dangerous and yet there are no measures in place to deter it or prevent its catastrophic consequences.

Bring back the chap walking with the red flag and we'll all be safer and happier as a result!

Dear Steve,

Sometimes we agree, and someimes we do not! But at least we can call the law an ass, and we don't call each other that!

By the way I don't have too much time on my hands, but never mind. I just avoid driving too far. I hate it. There really are idiots out there. I don't even consider myself a good driver - I know I am not - but by adopting the solution outlined in my first post in this thread, at least you may agree that I am a relatively safe one, and also a considerate one.

Good motoring to you, Dear Steve, from Fredrik