Naim CD players, Digital Outs and the case for and against...
Posted by: Top Cat on 04 December 2001
Hi folks. At some point toward the end of next year, I will be looking for a CD player to replace my long-gone Arcam player, which was never that great really. I am using a Marantz DR6000 right now as a player, but come the time I will relegate that to record-only priorities.
I would like to consider the CDX along with its contemporaries, as no matter how I look at it, CD is around to stay and a better player ought to be worth buying. However, the CDX doesn't have a digital output, which is essential for my purposes. I'd like to pose a few questions at those who know:
(1) Why not? Whilst I accept that a digital output may add to the cost of a player, I can't see how it would negatively affect the sonic capabilities given that everyone else offers digital outputs without any trouble.
(2) Can this be custom-ordered or added at a later date?
(3) Are there any new CD players coming out from Naim that might offer such a thing? Or is it against Naim policy?
Any feedback welcomed. I don't know my budget yet, but it's likely to be around two big ones, give or take. ETO would be sometime around next October.
TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."
Posted on: 04 December 2001 by Steve G
One of my main reservations before purchasing the CD3.5 was its lack of digital output but in the end I compromised by having a 2nd CD player (an Arcam Alpha 1 which I paid £50 for on Ebay) in the system just to record off. I've also recorded via the pre-amp's analogue outs and the results were pretty good.
I only record onto mini-disc with it presently - if I wish to record CD-CD or create compilation CD's I do that on my PC.
Regards
Steve
Posted on: 04 December 2001 by Scott Mckenzie
quote:
Originally posted by Steve G:
I've also recorded via the pre-amp's analogue outs and the results were pretty good.I only record onto mini-disc with it presently - if I wish to record CD-CD or create compilation CD's I do that on my PC.
Regards
Steve
This is a topic I am also interested in..but how do you copy from analogue outs? Is it similar to using a Tape loop on my old amp...
Could you explain what is involved please as I use MD in my car and would like to continue doing so, but would also like a CD3.5 (or better). FYI I have a Nait 3R.
Cheers
Scott
Posted on: 04 December 2001 by Top Cat
Surely a lot of potential customers must be put-off the idea of the current Naim players for this very reason?
I appreciate that Naim recommend the DAC be located as close to the transport as possible, which is all fine and well, but shouldn't customers be able to choose the 'better-DAC' route if they see fit?
It's not just about recording, you see. Analogue works, but the problem is loss - you are converting from D->A, then through interconnects, then back from A->D. Seems a bit silly, and you lose the encoded TOC and Text content (if present) - a real shame.
I think Naim will probably have thought this through and come to their decision, though, but why not offer it as an option to existing players - allowing the customer to decide?
TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."
Posted on: 04 December 2001 by Scott Mckenzie
See, what do you need the Blue Heavens for..you want a CDX.
Scott
Posted on: 04 December 2001 by Top Cat
Between pre- and poweramps. They can be reterminated.
TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."
Posted on: 04 December 2001 by Allan Probin
TC,
What will you be using the recordings for ? if its just for the car or 'background' music what about considering a reasonable mid-price DVD player just for this purpose. You get to make recordings of CDs and get a movie player thrown in for free !
If you are looking for a digital-out with an eye on future upgrades, the CDX has its own upgrade route, but in a different way.
Allan
Posted on: 04 December 2001 by Steve G
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Mckenzie:
Quote: "Originally posted by Steve G:
I've also recorded via the pre-amp's analogue outs and the results were pretty good.I only record onto mini-disc with it presently - if I wish to record CD-CD or create compilation CD's I do that on my PC.
Regards
Steve"
This is a topic I am also interested in..but how do you copy from analogue outs? Is it similar to using a Tape loop on my old amp...
It's wired up in exactly the same way. The MD recorded has analogue ins and outs as well as digital ins and outs and can be wired in exactly the same was as a tape deck.
quote:
Could you explain what is involved please as I use MD in my car and would like to continue doing so, but would also like a CD3.5 (or better). FYI I have a Nait 3R.Cheers
Scott
Nothing to it - it's just like using a tape recorded except more convenient and with better sound quality. The only real problem I have with making analogue recordings is when recording live albums or where there is only a small gap between tracks. The "intelligent track numbering" of my Sony MD recorder (MD-JS520 I think) is generally quite good but with live albums everything tends to get recorded to the same track, making choosing songs painful. You can manually enter end of track markers but it's a pain in the bum. When recording digitally the end of track markers are picked up fine.
Regards
Steve
Posted on: 04 December 2001 by Steve G
One thing I meant to mention - my Micromega player has a digital out that can be switched on and off. If it's switched on when playing vinyl I can occasionally hear some low-level hiss which disappears when it's switched off.
If Naim were to consider adding a digital out (and I think they should as lots of people use digital recorders now) I think a switchable one is the best compromise.
Regards
Steve
Posted on: 04 December 2001 by Scott Mckenzie
quote:
Originally posted by Allan Probin:
TC,What will you be using the recordings for ? if its just for the car or 'background' music what about considering a reasonable mid-price DVD player just for this purpose. You get to make recordings of CDs and get a movie player thrown in for free !
If you are looking for a digital-out with an eye on future upgrades, the CDX has its own upgrade route, but in a different way.
Allan
This was the other route I was considering too...
Cheers for the suggestions.
And TC....I will have that Blue Heaven, I won't hack it apart..it will be much happier with me...and you know it.
Scott
Posted on: 04 December 2001 by David Dever
SPDIF is great to play with but is just as lame for professional purposes. Buy a cheap DVD player to fiddle with, if you must.
Posted on: 04 December 2001 by Top Cat
Allan said:
quote:
What will you be using the recordings for ? if its just for the car or 'background' music what about considering a reasonable mid-price DVD player just for this purpose. You get to make recordings of CDs and get a movie player thrown in for free !
I have a DVD player already, but my long-term plan is to have the AV stuff in a seperate room to the hifi (which will be a listening den ) and I therefore don't really want to have THREE cd-players, even if one can do DVDs too...
Given that I haven't started my search yet, I thought I'd find out if Naim are dead-set against this idea or if it's maybe something that could appear in future machines.
Otherwise I will look elsewhere, I'm afraid, and so might others, too. FWIW, I am also planning to hear the then current models from Resolution Audio, Sim Audio, Linn, Densen and anything else that looks good at the time.
TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."
Posted on: 04 December 2001 by Top Cat
I will be using the recorder mainly for archiving my vinyl and making copies of CDs. Yeah, sure, I know, naughty me, but I'm being honest here, and when the music industry starts to treat me fairly as a consumer then I'll reciprocate. I'll also make the odd backup copy for the car or for friends.
TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."
Posted on: 04 December 2001 by Doug Graham
Engaging the digital out from the chip on a CD player seems to make the overall performance less good. We know cos we've done the experiment several times. It's all about performance and yes, if it's innconvenient we live with it!
Sales are not everything.
Later
Doug
Posted on: 04 December 2001 by Top Cat
Thanks, Doug.
However, you guys are technical types and this is a technical issue - there is surely a way and a means to providing this output without compromising the sound quality - consider it as an electronic engineering challenge, if you will - and so whilst you may say that 'sales aren't everything' (true) you also must recognise that Naim are in the best position to address this 'detrimental' situation by applying experience and technical innovation to provide this facility without compromise.
I for one would like to see a digital output on a Naim cd player. To paraphrase Kierkegaard, "If this is true of me, it must be true of you" (in the wider sense of other potential customers) and so Naim has an opportunity to innovate to meet a market demand.
Seems pretty straightforward to me. Some other manufacturers seem to have no problem with this approach, and I don't see why Naim should be different...
TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."
Posted on: 04 December 2001 by Doug Graham
Yes it's a technical issue but please understand that we would like to make things easier for ourselves but not through compromise. We've probably gained sales through this approach.
But I guess there are individuals who wouldn't buy a car unless it had a cup holder!
Later
Doug
Posted on: 04 December 2001 by Top Cat
Less like a cup holder and more like having a fifth gear I'd say...
TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."
Posted on: 04 December 2001 by steveb
Why worry that Naim CD players do not have a digital output. No problem, record Cd-R on a computer. It,s what i do, better software and flexibility than with Hi-Fi digital recorders. Used to record to tape-Dolby S Metal Tape but cannot be bothered anymore. Just record Cd-r on computer, cheaper.
Not had any problems yet on my Cd3.5 with the discs.
Posted on: 04 December 2001 by Doug Graham
We know we're in the right gear.
Anyway, moving on........
Later
Doug
Posted on: 04 December 2001 by Top Cat
...but it just comes across all wrong. You see, if it doesn't sound as good with a digital output then perhaps improving it so that it does would make more sense than refusing to provide one.
If most other manufacturers can do it (for better or for worse), I can't see why Naim can't. I'd love to be able to consider Naim come the time, but at the moment it is a feature that I don't think is unreasonable to expect of a two grand CD player...
Ah well, I hate to say it, but if I was buying a two grand CD player I'd at least want to be able to future-proof it should better DACs become available - e.g. the dCS stuff, which is technologically wonderful (if pricy)...
TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."
Posted on: 04 December 2001 by Doug Graham
Sorry that you misunderstand. It sounds less good to engage the digital out from the D/A chip. It's simple. Performance over convenience.
Much Later
Doug
Posted on: 04 December 2001 by Bob Edwards
TC--
How do you know other companies have not compromised the musical abilities of their players to include a digital out? Doug's statements seem clear: when Naim have experimented with enabling the digital out on the chip the sound quality deteriorates. This makes sense from an engineering perspective--you are requiring the same chip to divert processing power to enabling an additional feature. The more features you enable on, for example, an ATM switch or IP router the more you eat into the throughput of the box.
Also, given the wholistic nature of Naim's designs, the idea of "improving" the musical ability by adding an external DAC strikes me as unrealistic. If you aren't happy with how a CDX, for example, sounds, then don't buy one.
Cheers,
Bo
Posted on: 04 December 2001 by Greg Beatty
...what *I* want to know is why havn't Naim made a CD changer yet? I know I know...would degrade sound quality. But other companies do it so surely Naim can
Just kiddn...
I'll take my Naim player just the way it is.
CDs burned from our iBook sound reallllly good, BTW.
- GregB
Insert Witty Signature Line Here
Posted on: 04 December 2001 by Andrew L. Weekes
I think an earlier correspondant could have hit the nail on the head - why not make it switchable (assuming the hardware allows this?) with the requisite warnings of degraded audio performance when enabled. You'd need a big light on the front, green of course, as a warning
.
A clever solution would ensure it can never be enabled without an external connection being made, adding an element of safety. Wouldn't help with permanent connections though.
I don't think anyone wants Naim to be copy cats, but I can think of at least two CD players that sound marvellous (Naim CD12 and a Marantz SACD unit) that both sound fabulous with normal CD's and have digital outs. The Marantz is also competitive on price with a CDX / XPS, and bearing in mind the CD12's PSU is likely to bugger the sound of a Naim system significantly, it has more potential IMHO (not that I shall be buying one and finding it!).
A recent interview with Roy George commented specifically on this, and stated that Naim are always re-visiting the problem, as in his words (from my memory) 'it's becoming increasingly important to have these features'.
There's bound to be an ingenious engineering solution to the problem, it's just needs finding.
Andy.
P.S. TC the external DAC is rarely an upgrade, owing to the inevitable jitter problems, it's why Naim keep everything close together, and possibly why Linn have moved 'backwards' with the CD12 being a single box unit.
That said the basic jitter performance of the entry level players is unlikely to be better than a good two-box solution incorporating a well-implemented clock sync.
Posted on: 05 December 2001 by Top Cat
I accept the sound quality thing, but I know that real breaththroughs occur when people approach problems with a view to overcoming them, not backing away from them - if Naim finds that existing sound quality is degraded by the addition of digital outputs, then they surely are the best people to find an elegant engineering solution which DOESN'T degrade the sound.
[cynical viewpoint]
Or perhaps Naim DON'T want to provide digital outputs as it then forces people into the HiCap/XPS/etc. route as their only realistic option for upgrade (other than jumping ship)
[/cynical viewpoint]
TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."
Posted on: 05 December 2001 by Doug Graham
TC wrote
quote:
[cynical viewpoint]
Or perhaps Naim DON'T want to provide digital outputs as it then forces people into the HiCap/XPS/etc. route as their only realistic option for upgrade (other than jumping ship)
[/cynical viewpoint]
It's such a shame, I'm sure the majority would agree, that we're only doing our best and yet we have these type of unhelpful comments levelled at us. Sounds like the classic "build em up to knock em down" scenario. Top Cat, I guess you're the leader of the gang afterall.
Much later
Doug
