Naim CD players, Digital Outs and the case for and against...

I would seriously like to be able to consider Naim as a candidate for new CD player, but I do require a digital out, that's all. No knocking Naim down - others may do that if they like, but my experience with Naim the company and all the items of Naim gear I've owned (admittedly only the two) have been great.

I happen to subscribe to a different sound than most around here, but that's not to say I won't consider Naim as a serious option for source components - heck, I only want what's best for the music, and if that's Naim then that's Naim, or if it's Linn, or Densen, or Resolution Audio or... get the picture?

I still stand by the statement that if there is a problem getting the best out of a cd-player whilst incorporating a digital output, then there remains an engineering challenge to either meet or back away from. In my opinion, Naim are perhaps backing away from it, when frustratingly I am confident they could meet it and meet it well.

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Anyway, if you don't like the lack of features, then you will probably have to go else where. I am happy that Naims philospoy is sound first (except those balance controls - why!).

cheers

Matthew

JV said that the jitter performance of some component (digital filter?) became much worse as soon as anything was attached to the pins which output the SP/DIF signal.

There is an engineering solution to this - get Philips to provide a better chipset which doesn't suffer from this problem.

What do you think are the chances of that?

Rather than over-engineering the CDX and increasing it's cost substantially for no improvement in performance, I'd rather the digital outs on an old Arcam CD player that cost me £60.

If I'm, copying a CD I'm happy to use my PC, but if copying to Minidisc it would certainly make sense to use the Arcam route. Just need to keep that steel case away from my Naim gear!!

cheers, Martin

At a later stage, if you need to upgrade the DAC, you also get a free transport upgrade too

Andrew

Andrew Randle
2B || !2B;
4 ^ = ?;

Cheers
Ade

So why don't they just provide a digital out? It could be to minimize manufacturing cost. It might be to maintain the brand image of idiosynchratic perfectionism and the "homogenous system" philosophy. It may be that they don't want to open up their high-end gear to individual critique of transport and DAC. It may be something else. But with my knowledge of engineering it is my opinion that there are no technical barriers.

And from a "value for money" point of view I too feel that you have a right to expect basic features when you pay premium prices. Anyhow, fortunately there are lots of worthy alternatives out there to choose from if you need digital out.

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But with my knowledge of engineering it is my opinion that there are no technical barriers.

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so where is your CD player with digital out that sounds as good as a CDS2 ??? You obviously have more experience of CD player design that the people at Naim.

I'm a complete idiot of course, but I bought my CDS2 based on its sonic performance - and if Naim tell me that in order to get that preformance I'll have to do without a digital out ... then like a fool, I believe them. After all - the players I heard with digital outs didn't match the CDS2 in terms of sound.

I must admit that I am a bit peeved that it doesn't make the tea though ... this means I have to get up and go to the kitchen, which spoils my listening sessions somewhat ... and with my knowledge of engineering it is my opinion that there are no technical barriers to providing this useful feature ... after all my radio/teasmaid seems to manage it OK.

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I too feel that you have a right to expect basic features when you pay premium prices

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I know Naim feel this as the presence of remote control capability on the preamps testifies. They pulled a great trick in finding a way to add this while not degrading sound quality. Many around here felt that the Nait 3R sounded better than the Nait 3 (whether this was actually related to adding the remote I don't know).

I *do not* want to see Naim degrading sound quality by adding features that some feel are basic. To me, the reason for paying the premium price for a Naim player is because it sounds better. Only add a feature if a) it enhances the experience without degrading sound quality, or b) a large number of the target market REFUSE to purchase without the feature (e.g., remote). IMHO, digital out does not fall into either category at the moment.

- Greg

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

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so where is your CD player with digital out that sounds as good as a CDS2 ???

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I love those sort of responses, maybe bam doesn't make CD players, it doesn't make his contribution worthless.

I agree with him, I don't feel there are technical barriers, but I'm certain there are cost ones. They are exacerbated by the fact the cheapest equipment is in an area of the market where there's greatest demand for such features.

I think the ideas he offers are sensible, there is almost always a way to acheive a result, cost is the usual restraint.

The digital out is, as you suggest, not yet in the same category as remote controls, but some clear explanation to potential customers is required as to the problems of enabling it, which is primarily a dealers responsibility. I wonder how many would understand the issue though?

I had a quick look in on another forum recently, running a thread along the lines of 'HiFi pet hates'. One correspondant's hate was equipment without remote control, paraphrased it was along the lines of 'Why is it the 'best' manufacturers don't seem able to offer remote control, when lesser ones can - kind of makes them the worst in my book'.

I don't agree with the above, since I'm aware there will be a trade-off between performance and cost, but many aren't aware.

It's these views that have to be conquered or sated, Roy George's interview read positively on the research Naim are doing into adding this functionality, but the responses from the forum admin don't read as well and appear (to me) much more negative, which is, I'm sure, not there intention.

My solution is to order an external A-D, for vinyl transfers, that will allow me to re-digitize all my analogue signals for feeding to minidisc, PC etc. It's a more costly option than buying a cheap CD with digital out, but I don't need another big box, and the solution I have is more versatile. It might sound worse than staying analogue, but since I record directly to a portable minidisc, I doubt it.

I feel the way I use my system has changed in some ways, despite the fact I'm sure I appear a tweaky fiddler, it's far from the truth. I just wan't to listen to music, which is what I do most. But I also want convenience and versatility in a neat package. The 5 series offers most of that for me and it's release was opportune timing, since I would have considered other equipment otherwise, as remote control was essential.

I don't want sound quality sacrifices to be made, but likewise I'm far less prepared now to accept the usueability compromises I used to. Maybe I'm alone in that, but I doubt it.

Clever engineering is what I want, something Naim are good at.

Andy.

P.S. The Marantz SACD player I alluded to earlier is the SA-1, it has in the words of the reviewer 'almost the lowest jitter of any CD player, in my database of over 300 models' - it also has digital outputs.

[This message was edited by Andrew L. Weekes on WEDNESDAY 05 December 2001 at 16:39.]

there was no offence taken. I was just trying to point out that although it is obviously possible to put a digital out on a CD player, that if Naim say, with all their experience, that to do so will degrade the sound of their players ... it does seem rather churlish to call them liars, and accuse them of some cunning marketing trick, when the majority of us buy Naim equipment precisly beacuse it sounds so good.

You obviously prefer a different brand of CD player ... and value your digital out. Still seems a bit much to effectively accuse Naim of lying when they give their reasons for not providing one on their players.

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if Naim finds that existing sound quality is degraded by the addition of digital outputs, then they surely are the best people to find an elegant engineering solution which DOESN'T degrade the sound.

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You may have a slightly romantic idea of how CD player chipsets are developed.

It's extremely unlikely that Naim (and, Doug, correct me if I'm wrong, here) design and/or make their own DAC chipset. Much more likely that they specify relatively minor design enhancements (tweaks, if you like) when purchasing from a large supplier such as Burr-Brown (to pick a name at random).

Given the massive investment required to design, prototype, sample and manufacture the silicone chips used in, and surrounding, the DAC, I doubt Naim could take on such an endeavour without a fairly radical change in it's business model.

From comments on this thread and others from people at Naim, it would seem that in order to modify the CD player chipset to allow a digital out without any degradation of the sound would mean a fairly fundamental change in the chipset design, not the kind of thing a small volume supplier such as Naim can undertake, or force a larger manufacturer to undertake.

This is all just my humble opinion, of course!

Chris L

P.S. That's not to take aynthing away from Naim, their players are, to my ears, the best silver disk spinners around - maybe it's because they don't use the digital out?