Brahms
Posted by: Tam on 09 April 2006
I've been thinking a fair amount about Brahms and his symphonies lately and thought I'd start a thread on the topic, then I did a search and discovered Fredrik had beaten me to it by some years with this interesting thread:
http://forums.naim-audio.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/38019385/m/5671964576/p/1
(suggest you read it first - probably much more interesting than anything I have to say
)
I would have posted on the end and brought it back but it is now locked. Ah well.
My introduction to Brahms' symphonies came just after the 2003 Edinburgh festival. Through sheer idiocy I decided not to come in time up for Mackerras's two concerts with the SCO where he played all four and the piano concerti with Schiff (the stupidity of this decision was confirmed both by the reports of family members who were there and listening to the radio broadcasts). I have been kicking myself ever since and this could happily have gone on the 'best concert you never went to' thread.
However, all was not lost because Mackerras has recorded them with the SCO on Telarc (the smaller forces are in line with the ones Brahms used for two of the premiers). What's more, we get a fourth disc containing a wonderfully illuminating interview (making this even more of a must for a Mackerras fan such as myself). I don't think the works suffer from the size of forces, in fact, the set is very satisfying indeed and I would have no trouble recommending it - I would write a more detailed review but I fear I don't know the works well enough to do so.
However, I have had in my mind ever since that I was only hearing part of the picture; what, I wondered, did these works sound like with a bigger band. I acquired two further cycles - those of Bernstein with the VPO and Haitink on LSO 'live'. I got the Bernstein principly because I'm a great fan of him as a conductor (and where he does well - Beethoven, Mahler, Mozart 40&41, his own work, etc. - he does exceptionally). Sadly, Brahms is not one of those areas and all but the 4th symphony (which is a wonderfully exhilarating) leave me utterly cold. I bought the Haitink cycle largely because at the time I was very much enamored of the label (I had bought several wonderful recordings from them and given the price, and the feeling that I was supporting the ensemble, I thought I couldn't go wrong); what was more, number 2, coupled with the double concerto, got a rave write-up in the gramophone. This was deserved as it remains a very enjoyable disc. The first symphony isn't bad, but it's nothing to write home about either. Three and four are disappointing and given four is alone on the disc, rather poor value too.
At this point I began to wonder if I actually liked Brahms (when what I should have done, but for some reason didn't, was to dig out my Mackerras cycle). However, I had a glance in the penguin guide which steered me towards Abbado (calling it the 'first choice among modern digital cycles), however, I wasn't about to pay the £60 that DG seemed to want for it. However, a few months back it was on special offer in my local CD shop and I snapped it up. Perhaps it was the fact I was coming to the set with such high expectations, but again I was disappointed. If anything, Abbado seems to lack energy and for the last couple of months it has sat on my shelves ignored. Then came the Szell/Cleveland cycle (I inherited it recently), and again I had reasonable hopes since I have considerable fondness for this combination. It wasn't unenjoyable, but neither did it blow me away, and I have not felt the urge to dust the discs off since I first listened to them a few months ago.
However, by this time I knew it was the interpreters not Brahms nor the scale of forces. About a year ago I attended a concert where Mackerras did both the Academic Overture and the 4th symphony with the Philharmonia and it was absolutely stunning (I found myself wishing he'd just record the symphonies with them too).
Recently I dug out my Mackerras cycle again and have been playing it a lot. There is a fantastic energy and time and time again it gets me wanting to armchair conduct (which I feel is always the mark of a good record). So, this week I dusted down the Abbado cycle again to give it a second chance, but it just doesn't engage me in the way Mackerras does (I now think I am going to get rid of it - a radical step for me).
However, all this leaves me without a strong 'big' orchestra cycle. I'm sure there must be one out there. On a whim I ordered, at budget price, Jochum's cycle (a conductor for whom I have great affection, and about whom a thread may shortly be forthcoming), so we shall see how that goes. I feel fairly confident that Fredrik will tell me that what I need is Boult, so perhaps I should give him a try. However, I would appreciate any other thoughts.
regards, Tam
p.s. Out of interest, is there a logic to having old threads get locked like this - I would much rather have simply brought Fredrik's back.
http://forums.naim-audio.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/38019385/m/5671964576/p/1
(suggest you read it first - probably much more interesting than anything I have to say
)I would have posted on the end and brought it back but it is now locked. Ah well.
My introduction to Brahms' symphonies came just after the 2003 Edinburgh festival. Through sheer idiocy I decided not to come in time up for Mackerras's two concerts with the SCO where he played all four and the piano concerti with Schiff (the stupidity of this decision was confirmed both by the reports of family members who were there and listening to the radio broadcasts). I have been kicking myself ever since and this could happily have gone on the 'best concert you never went to' thread.
However, all was not lost because Mackerras has recorded them with the SCO on Telarc (the smaller forces are in line with the ones Brahms used for two of the premiers). What's more, we get a fourth disc containing a wonderfully illuminating interview (making this even more of a must for a Mackerras fan such as myself). I don't think the works suffer from the size of forces, in fact, the set is very satisfying indeed and I would have no trouble recommending it - I would write a more detailed review but I fear I don't know the works well enough to do so.
However, I have had in my mind ever since that I was only hearing part of the picture; what, I wondered, did these works sound like with a bigger band. I acquired two further cycles - those of Bernstein with the VPO and Haitink on LSO 'live'. I got the Bernstein principly because I'm a great fan of him as a conductor (and where he does well - Beethoven, Mahler, Mozart 40&41, his own work, etc. - he does exceptionally). Sadly, Brahms is not one of those areas and all but the 4th symphony (which is a wonderfully exhilarating) leave me utterly cold. I bought the Haitink cycle largely because at the time I was very much enamored of the label (I had bought several wonderful recordings from them and given the price, and the feeling that I was supporting the ensemble, I thought I couldn't go wrong); what was more, number 2, coupled with the double concerto, got a rave write-up in the gramophone. This was deserved as it remains a very enjoyable disc. The first symphony isn't bad, but it's nothing to write home about either. Three and four are disappointing and given four is alone on the disc, rather poor value too.
At this point I began to wonder if I actually liked Brahms (when what I should have done, but for some reason didn't, was to dig out my Mackerras cycle). However, I had a glance in the penguin guide which steered me towards Abbado (calling it the 'first choice among modern digital cycles), however, I wasn't about to pay the £60 that DG seemed to want for it. However, a few months back it was on special offer in my local CD shop and I snapped it up. Perhaps it was the fact I was coming to the set with such high expectations, but again I was disappointed. If anything, Abbado seems to lack energy and for the last couple of months it has sat on my shelves ignored. Then came the Szell/Cleveland cycle (I inherited it recently), and again I had reasonable hopes since I have considerable fondness for this combination. It wasn't unenjoyable, but neither did it blow me away, and I have not felt the urge to dust the discs off since I first listened to them a few months ago.
However, by this time I knew it was the interpreters not Brahms nor the scale of forces. About a year ago I attended a concert where Mackerras did both the Academic Overture and the 4th symphony with the Philharmonia and it was absolutely stunning (I found myself wishing he'd just record the symphonies with them too).
Recently I dug out my Mackerras cycle again and have been playing it a lot. There is a fantastic energy and time and time again it gets me wanting to armchair conduct (which I feel is always the mark of a good record). So, this week I dusted down the Abbado cycle again to give it a second chance, but it just doesn't engage me in the way Mackerras does (I now think I am going to get rid of it - a radical step for me).
However, all this leaves me without a strong 'big' orchestra cycle. I'm sure there must be one out there. On a whim I ordered, at budget price, Jochum's cycle (a conductor for whom I have great affection, and about whom a thread may shortly be forthcoming), so we shall see how that goes. I feel fairly confident that Fredrik will tell me that what I need is Boult, so perhaps I should give him a try. However, I would appreciate any other thoughts.
regards, Tam
p.s. Out of interest, is there a logic to having old threads get locked like this - I would much rather have simply brought Fredrik's back.