Brahms
Posted by: Tam on 09 April 2006
I've been thinking a fair amount about Brahms and his symphonies lately and thought I'd start a thread on the topic, then I did a search and discovered Fredrik had beaten me to it by some years with this interesting thread:
http://forums.naim-audio.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/38019385/m/5671964576/p/1(suggest you read it first - probably much more interesting than anything I have to say
)
I would have posted on the end and brought it back but it is now locked. Ah well.
My introduction to Brahms' symphonies came just after the 2003 Edinburgh festival. Through sheer idiocy I decided not to come in time up for Mackerras's two concerts with the SCO where he played all four and the piano concerti with Schiff (the stupidity of this decision was confirmed both by the reports of family members who were there and listening to the radio broadcasts). I have been kicking myself ever since and this could happily have gone on the 'best concert you never went to' thread.
However, all was not lost because Mackerras has recorded them with the SCO on Telarc (the smaller forces are in line with the ones Brahms used for two of the premiers). What's more, we get a fourth disc containing a wonderfully illuminating interview (making this even more of a must for a Mackerras fan such as myself). I don't think the works suffer from the size of forces, in fact, the set is very satisfying indeed and I would have no trouble recommending it - I would write a more detailed review but I fear I don't know the works well enough to do so.
However, I have had in my mind ever since that I was only hearing part of the picture; what, I wondered, did these works sound like with a bigger band. I acquired two further cycles - those of Bernstein with the VPO and Haitink on LSO 'live'. I got the Bernstein principly because I'm a great fan of him as a conductor (and where he does well - Beethoven, Mahler, Mozart 40&41, his own work, etc. - he does exceptionally). Sadly, Brahms is not one of those areas and all but the 4th symphony (which is a wonderfully exhilarating) leave me utterly cold. I bought the Haitink cycle largely because at the time I was very much enamored of the label (I had bought several wonderful recordings from them and given the price, and the feeling that I was supporting the ensemble, I thought I couldn't go wrong); what was more, number 2, coupled with the double concerto, got a rave write-up in the gramophone. This was deserved as it remains a very enjoyable disc. The first symphony isn't bad, but it's nothing to write home about either. Three and four are disappointing and given four is alone on the disc, rather poor value too.
At this point I began to wonder if I actually liked Brahms (when what I should have done, but for some reason didn't, was to dig out my Mackerras cycle). However, I had a glance in the penguin guide which steered me towards Abbado (calling it the 'first choice among modern digital cycles), however, I wasn't about to pay the £60 that DG seemed to want for it. However, a few months back it was on special offer in my local CD shop and I snapped it up. Perhaps it was the fact I was coming to the set with such high expectations, but again I was disappointed. If anything, Abbado seems to lack energy and for the last couple of months it has sat on my shelves ignored. Then came the Szell/Cleveland cycle (I inherited it recently), and again I had reasonable hopes since I have considerable fondness for this combination. It wasn't unenjoyable, but neither did it blow me away, and I have not felt the urge to dust the discs off since I first listened to them a few months ago.
However, by this time I knew it was the interpreters not Brahms nor the scale of forces. About a year ago I attended a concert where Mackerras did both the Academic Overture and the 4th symphony with the Philharmonia and it was absolutely stunning (I found myself wishing he'd just record the symphonies with them too).
Recently I dug out my Mackerras cycle again and have been playing it a lot. There is a fantastic energy and time and time again it gets me wanting to armchair conduct (which I feel is always the mark of a good record). So, this week I dusted down the Abbado cycle again to give it a second chance, but it just doesn't engage me in the way Mackerras does (I now think I am going to get rid of it - a radical step for me).
However, all this leaves me without a strong 'big' orchestra cycle. I'm sure there must be one out there. On a whim I ordered, at budget price, Jochum's cycle (a conductor for whom I have great affection, and about whom a thread may shortly be forthcoming), so we shall see how that goes. I feel fairly confident that Fredrik will tell me that what I need is Boult, so perhaps I should give him a try. However, I would appreciate any other thoughts.
regards, Tam
p.s. Out of interest, is there a logic to having old threads get locked like this - I would much rather have simply brought Fredrik's back.
Posted on: 03 May 2006 by graham55
Fredrik
Thanks for your kind offer, but I have the Toscanini set already.
Graham
Posted on: 03 May 2006 by Tam
Dear Fredrik (and others),
Thanks for bringing back this thread.
I am very glad you are enjoying the set. For whatever reason it had largely sat ignored on my shelves (despite several attempts to get to like it). I think the lack of energy is what does it for me, but I suppose it only goes to show why it is such a good thing there are a range of different interpretations available.
The other reason I cleared away the set is I have been stocking up on some new Brahms recordings, though I have not yet got around to listening to all of them yet.
First up, based no least on Grahams persistent recommendation (and the fact Amazon had it for a fiver), I picked up DG's Carlos Klieber tribute disc. As well as the famous 4th is also has the Schubert unfinished and some exerts from his Tristan (the later were particularly fine, especially the singing of Isolde, I cannot remember who the singer is off the top of my head - I mentioned my thoughts on the Schubert on the what are you listening to thread the other day). Unforunately, I found the Brahms a little disappointing. There was rather less flow to it that there ought to be which sucked some of the energy out (sorry Graham).
The other discs I have picked up are the first two in Marin Alsop's new cycle with the LPO on Naxos (both dirt cheap and well filled, the first has the academic and tragic overtures, the second some Hungarian dances) and Jochum's mono cycle with the BPO. I haven't yet had a chance to listen to the Alsop (bought partly out of the shameful realisation, brough on by a recent thread, of just how few female conductors were represented in my library, and the fact she has always impressed when I've seen her live), though the bits I've dipped into have sounded very promising. I've only listened to the Jochum first, but already am impressed. The playing is outstanding and the work, in places, wonderfully exciting. The finale has a, perhaps unsurprisingly, Brucknerian swell to it. I think I have read elsewhere that he misses some repeats, which helps fit all four on two discs (the notes are unhelpful, as with almost all Jochum recordings I own, they go along the lines of 'while Jochum is best know for Bruckner his [insert composer in question here] is also very good'). That would certainly explain the quite short (in comparison to other recordings) timings of some movements, without them feeling sluggish.
regards, Tam
Posted on: 03 May 2006 by graham55
Tam
Your disappointment disappoints me but, as noted above, we all have to make our own choices. We certainly can't force our particular (peculiar?) enjoyments upon others. Persevere with the Brahms (and indeed the Schubert and Wagner), and may I suggest that you perhaps turn up the volume a little bit more than usual.
Incidentally, I have the Jochum DG set and I think that it's greatly undervalued by Brahms lovers.
Graham
Posted on: 03 May 2006 by Steve S1
quote:
I'm surprised at your both having got rid of the Toscanini set. But we all make our own choices, after all.
Hi Graham, my CD collection would grow like topsy if I didn't cull some that I no longer play.
The Toscanini performances are rightly held in high regard and I have enjoyed them, but they are intense and I have found the broader views taken by Walter and Boult more to my liking as sets.
For individual discs, the Klieber (fourth) and Klemperer (first) give me all the intensity I need. The other individual disc I return to regularly is Cantelli's (third).
If I had to take one set to the proverbial desert island - it would be the Walter. By happy coincidence, despite their age, they are among the best sounding too.
Regards,
Steve.
Posted on: 03 May 2006 by Tam
quote:
Originally posted by graham55:
Tam
Your disappointment disappoints me but, as noted above, we all have to make our own choices. We certainly can't force our particular (peculiar?) enjoyments upon others. Persevere with the Brahms (and indeed the Schubert and Wagner), and may I suggest that you perhaps turn up the volume a little bit more than usual.
Dear Graham,
I did listen late on Sunday evening and so, in with the neighbours in mind, the volume was low. I shall give it another listen with more welly and report back.
regards, Tam
Posted on: 03 May 2006 by u5227470736789439
quote:
Originally posted by Steve S1:
quote:
I'm surprised at your both having got rid of the Toscanini set. But we all make our own choices, after all.
Hi Graham, my CD collection would grow like topsy if I didn't cull some that I no longer play.
The Toscanini performances are rightly held in high regard and I have enjoyed them, but they are intense and I have found the broader views taken by Walter and Boult more to my liking as sets.
_____Fred:
Though I am trying to give them away, I am not all sure that toscanini's set is rightly regarded as being better than any other. It has intensity and nervous energy, which actually relates to the simple fact that the orchestra was so frightened of him that [for example] the trombonist completely wrecks his moment in the finale of the Firts Symphony as a result of a problem at the rehearsal. The second concert saw him replaced as trombonist, and he was seriously unable to play for some time. By the time Klemperer came to record the works with the Philharmonia the guy was back in his seat and plays like an angel. I find it hard to respect a conductor so brutal that he terrifies a player of this quality. Interestingly Furtwangler's approach was totally different with the Philharmonia and elsewhere. Once on being asked to correct a trumpet player by Legge the producer, he said on the phone to his recording man,
"I could not advise that man how to play. He is an angel!" No wonder orchestras loved furtwangler and hated Toscanini. I know which personality type I would rather have worked with.
____Steve:
For individual discs, the Klieber (fourth) and Klemperer (first) give me all the intensity I need. The other individual disc I return to regularly is Cantelli's (third).
____Fred:
Klemperer: Agreed. totally amazing! Kleiber. I think I have to admit to having no comment beyond that I kept the disc less than twelve months!
____Steve:
If I had to take one set to the proverbial desert island - it would be the Walter. By happy coincidence, despite their age, they are among the best sounding too.
Regards,
Steve.
Remains of Fred:
On Walter, I have to say it would be a tough choice between him and Boult. I adore both ways with it.Please believe me. I care too much for this music to be easy to please!
ATB from Fredrik
Please someone have the Toscanini set, though I suspect that Oxfam will be the beneficiary.
Posted on: 04 May 2006 by Tam
Dear Graham,
Well, I gave the Kleiber another go and found it more favourable. I think you were onto something with regard to volume (and the first movement in particular had a greater flow - I think it had been sufficiently soft that many of the quieter passages had gone almost unnoticed). I think the second and third movements are particularly fine, though I'm not sure that the fourth has quite the punch of the very best accounts (and I still don't feel the symphony ranks among the conductors greatest works - certainly not up there with his Beethoven 5&7).
On a related note, as I reread the liner notes, I noticed something about him being offered the Berlin Phil and turning it down (which I think we've talked about before), anyway, it made me think since I'd recently read a note in the Jochum Brahms suggesting he must have been bitter at being passed over for the same job in favour of Karajan (and given my feelings about the latter that's a great shame indeed). Anyway, made me wonder what other missed jobs there might have been (though it is probably the subject for another thread...)
regards, Tam
Posted on: 04 May 2006 by Earwicker
The most recent Brahms set I've enjoyed has been Harnoncourt's refreshing and marvellously played set with the Berlin Phil; it's a bit too out-of the-ordinary to be a primary recommendation for people who are in library building mode and are looking for one "definitive" set, but if you're familiar with these masterpieces and fancy looking at them afresh, they're quite essential! Recorded live, and including the Haydn Variations and the 2 concert overtures, they make a very strong case for themselves. You WON'T have heard it all before, trust me!
I see Fredrik mentioned the Alto Rhapsody earlier. The one that gets played here is Janet Baker's with Boult, which I adore. I suppose I ought to add a newer perspective at some point - any suggestions for a digital recording??
EW
Posted on: 04 May 2006 by graham55
Tam
Once you've played the Kleiber Brahms Fourth a few more times, you'll come to see that it has never been matched, I think. Easily on a par with his Beethoven Fifth and Seventh.
What might the man have achieved if he had felt able to accept the Berlin PO's offer? But that's not who he was. He simply didn't go for the whole conducting thing.
Kleiber's greatest achievement in the studio was his last, 'Tristan und Isolde'. No one else comes close, although that's not well accepted by critics who don't understand that he was trying to achieve something better than could ever be achieved in a single 'live' performance.
Graham
Posted on: 04 May 2006 by Tam
Dear Graham,
I must say, the tasters make me want to hear the rest of the Tristan very much.
Out of interest, have you heard the Bernstein/VPO Brahms 4, which is also rather fine (though the rest of the cycle isn't up to much).
regards, Tam
Posted on: 04 May 2006 by graham55
Tam
No (Lennie-wise).
Graham
Posted on: 04 May 2006 by Steve S1
quote:
Out of interest, have you heard the Bernstein/VPO Brahms 4, which is also rather fine (though the rest of the cycle isn't up to much).
Tam, is that on video/DVD?
I remember seeing footage of him conducting Brahms1 final movement, I felt "wrung out" at the end!
I couldn't cope with that in a four disc set.
Regards, Steve.
Posted on: 04 May 2006 by Tam
Dear Steve,
No idea, I'm afraid (though the DVD releases have been coming thick and fast since DG acquired the Unitel catalogue, but I don't know if he ever did any Brahms for it). I have a CD set of Bernstein doing all the Brahms with the VPO (as well as the violin concerto). I would absolutely not advise the purchase of it as a set, since, as a whole it's very poor and the 4th is really the only thing that's really good. The 4th is available on an individual CD (and coupled with the tragic overture).
regards, Tam
Posted on: 06 May 2006 by Tam
Well, I have just finished the first discs of the Alsop/LPO Brahms cycle on Naxos, and I can highly recommend it. The disc features the first symphony (in a solid, if not altogether remarkable account - though there is some very fine playing and the reading is full of energy). However, the real gem of this disc is the great accounts of the academic and tragic overtures, which are some of the finest I can remember hearing. And all for a fiver - you can't really say fairer than that. I can't wait for 4th disc which will have number four along with the Haydn variations (one of my favourite bits of Brahms).
regards, Tam
Posted on: 07 May 2006 by Tam
Well, having listened to the second Alsop Brahms disc, I can certainly say that I am eagerly awaiting the next two discs. The symphony had its moments, but I was not altogether blown away, then again, the second is the one I struggle with the most. The filler is some really wonderful Hungarian dances (some orchestrated by Brahms, some by Dvorak). Anyway, at Naxos prices, these discs are well worth having.
I've also now listened to the 2nd and 3rd symphonies on the Jochum/BPO set. Unfortunately, I am somewhat less impressed that I was with the first. The third is very good in the outer movements (and, more generally, the louder and the faster, the more convincing Jochum is). Sadly, in the middle movements, loud and fast are not the key factors of a good performance. The second is more successful, and I think I prefer it Alsop (though her she is obviously better recorded), I need now, I think, to have another listen to Haitink's fine LSO live account for comparison.
regards, Tam
Posted on: 09 May 2006 by Tam
And a listen to the 4th takes me to the end of the mono Jochum/BPO cycle, and, to be honest, I'd struggle to recommend it. Unlike the earlier ones, the faster movements are among the weakest (indeed, the pace in the first rather ruins it). Contrast with the second movement which is rather fine. The third and fourth movements are pretty mediocre and, to be honest, this isn't a terribly satisfying listen.
I'm now more curious to hear his stereo LPO readings (which gained an unscientific penguin rosette, as opposed to these mono ones which were rather disappointingly reviewed).
regards, Tam
Posted on: 09 May 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear Tam,
I have just listened to Abbado in the Second Symphony, which I love (well of them the same really), and was taken by its wonderful long breathed lyricism! It is the first time that I welcomed the first movement exposition repeat on records, even at his steady tempo! I have to say that though this is not the only way, it certainly is a most sustained nad beautiful way. I am so pleased to have access to these performances.
Before came an equally wonderous performance of the Alto Rhapsody. A wonderful foil for the keener response of Boult either with Janet Baker or Monica Sinclair, or the seriousness of Klemperer with Chista Ludwig.
Yes these readings will give pleasure for a long time!
All the best from Fredrik
Posted on: 10 May 2006 by Earwicker
quote:
Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
Before came an equally wonderous performance of the Alto Rhapsody.
Who's the soloist? I love the Boult/Baker recording, but would like to add some other, digitally recorded, perspectives...
EW
Posted on: 10 May 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear EW,
The Alto soloist is Marjana Lipovsek. I thinks she gets it very nively actually. She has a real Alto voice and is not a Mezzo with the compass to sing it. Monica Sinclair in the older Boult recording has a similar voice, and style.
The whole Abbado set is very fine indeed, and I doubt it would disappoint anyone unless they want this music absolutley driven. I am relishing its wonderful lyricism and gentle authority. Bit like Walter's old set really!
All the best from Fredrik
Posted on: 11 May 2006 by Earwicker
quote:
Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
The Alto soloist is Marjana Lipovsek.
Ah... now then, time to visit Mr Amazon methinks! I was listening to her fine contribution to the Hyperion Schubert edition the other day...
Thanks!
EW
Posted on: 11 May 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear EW,
Let us know how you find the Brahms. It has been a great pleasure to me to find something so individual and at the same time so central in the tradition of Brahms performance as these lovely readings from Claudio Abbado.
All the best from Fredrik
Posted on: 14 May 2006 by Tam
Dear Friends,
Please disregard my earlier comments on the Jochum/BPO set!
The fact that my views seemed so utterly at odds with what Graham feels about this set prompted me to give the discs another spin. I suggested on the Jochum thread that perhaps mood or some other nebulous quality had an impact on my enjoyment the first time round, because on a second listen these are a real treat and I cannot for the life of me understand why I was complaining that they were overrushed. Indeed, as I type this, I'm listening to the second movement of the second symphony which is wonderfully lyrical. Earlier today I gave the third another spin and while it is probably the weakest of the set, it is by no means rushed either and is a fine account none the less.
So, contrary to what I may have suggested above, this is a very satisfying set and well worth a listen.
regards, Tam
p.s. if anyone one wants me I'll be standing in the corner feeling like an idiot!
Posted on: 14 May 2006 by Tam
Well, having listened to the whole set again, I can perhaps detect one or two moments which might have generated my 'rushed' comments (particularly the closing bars of the finale of the second and of the first movement of the fourth) but not really in such a way as to make it in anyway a fair assessment of these readings.
It is true they are brisk in places, but Jochum slows up nicely when needed and the result is very fine indeed (the third movement of the fourth is especially well played with some lovely percussion). I must have been in a weird mood when I listened to them last weekend.
Now, where did I put that humble pie.....?
Actually, I think I did get one thing right in my earlier posts on this set. The first is extremely fine (indeed, one of the finest I have).
regards, Tam
Posted on: 15 May 2006 by graham55
Tam
I'm very pleased to see that you're now enjoying the Jochum set after all. The BPO were very much Furtwaengler's band when these recordings were made (is that mentioned in the sleeve notes? - can't remember).
My memory was also playing me false when I suggested (on the separate Jochum thread) that some of the symphonies were caught in stereo, but I'd also forgotten that DG had been able to squeeze all four symphonies onto two CDs.
So, once I've been out to get my paper, I shall brew up a big pot of coffee and give them a spin. Now that's a prospect!
Graham
Posted on: 15 May 2006 by Tam
There is a lot of mention of Furtwangler earlier on in the notes (particularly suggesting that Jochum must have been disappointed not to get the Berlin job after he died - which to my ears, and I suspect I may have said this before, is a shame as I much prefer him to Karajan - still, then he wouldn't have been able to do what he did with the BRSO so I suppose it's swings and roundabouts. Mind you, there's probably a lengthy thread along the lines of 'great chief conductors the BPO never had', I think I can guess your nomination!).
regards, Tam
