saddam found

Saddam was caught without a shot fired???!!!

Didn't they just have a war in which thousands of people have died?

It was the gloating style of the anouncement I disliked (complete with smirk). I'm glad he has been captured and I have no doubt that good solid careful work went into tracking him down, well done indeed.

Sorry I am getting increasingly miserable and argumentative about this entire debacle-and have almost no positive suggestions for getting us (and the Iraqis) out of the mire.

Bruce

Chaps

Some of you lot get depressed over nothing.

A tyrant has been deposed and will probably be soon pushing up daisies, the oil supply is now guaranted and all you do is bloody moan.

Bush and Blair have done well and despite you bunch of whingers, they will both get re elected.

If that upsets you.......Tough.

You have flogged this subject to death, surely you can think of something new to whinge about.

Regards

Mick

Well said Mick!
T

quote:

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Originally posted by Bruce Woodhouse:
Saddam was caught without a shot fired???!!!

Didn't they just have a war in which thousands of people have died?

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I was genuinely going to say "Yes, I am aware that there has just been a war but in this small unit action, no shots where fired..." but I had assumed that this would have been stating the obvious.

I will remember next time.

Mike

On the Yellow Brick Road and happy

Good Old Wiltshire, The Moral Backbone of the Nation innit.
Fritz Von Oohwhatasuprise

Graham Ricketts

Piss² They didn't shoot cos there'd be Blue on Blue all over the bleedin place, Wake Up.

Monologue naturally @

http://graham.ricketts.bei.t-online.de
Though to be honest most of you guys unsuprisingly seem to already know as much as you wish to hear, in an Israeli kind of selective deafness, Up the Hammers.

Take your own advice and bugger off.

Love

Mick

quote:

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Originally posted by Bruce Woodhouse:
It was the gloating style of the anouncement I disliked (complete with smirk).

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I dunno Bruce, I think they are just about allowed that. The relief must be enormous - it was getting very embarassing.
I wasn't aware of any whinging here...did I miss something?

quote:

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You have to give them the freedom to determine their own future ...

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If only that was what it was all about.

In truth, they only have the freedom to do what the USA will permit. Not quite the same thing.

If my business contacts in the Middle East are even remotely representative, the Arab world has a newfound respect for the USA after Saddam's capture. I'm sure others here with links to the region will report the same thing.

The respect may be grudging, my associates certainly don't care for the occupation, and they are, to a man, vehemently opposed to the US's unquestioning support of Israel - but they know and respect strength and resolve. This will prove more significant than any immediate military benefit.

Alan

The main problem is that some people just cannot stand action and success. These inactive ******** just moan and moan and moan. Put them in front of a screen and off they go. They should accept the fact that both of Bush and Blair have won the day and will probably get re elected because most of the voters are thankful that they did something rather than waffle on in the UN HQ, passing one ineffective resolution after another.

Regards

Mick

Did anyone hear Martin Shanklemans business news on Radio 2 a few moments ago?
Apparently, in his 'house' they found 2 Mars bars, 2 Bounty bars, a 7-up and a hot dog!!
Political asylum in the land of the free anyone?

Paul

quote:

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Originally posted by Berlin Fritz:
Though to be honest most of you guys unsuprisingly seem to already know as much as you wish to hear, in an Israeli kind of selective deafness, Up the Hammers.

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And some of us just post pointless drivel.

Mike

On the Yellow Brick Road and happy

Mick said:

quote:

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These inactive ******** just moan and moan and moan. Put them in front of a screen and off they go.

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I'm curious, Mick - how is what you are doing any different? They go off on something they feel strongly about; you go off on them.

Please describe for us the active role YOU'VE taken in the Iraqi regime change. Or, the active role you've taken in, well, anything of any impact. Please tell us all how you've made our world a better place. Otherwise, you're just another inactive ******* getting in front of a screen and going off.

Sincerely,

Jay

Sorry Mick. I respect your argument is that the 'end justifies the means' and your consistency throughout the year.

I'm not whingeing-but I will not accept that the action in Iraq and its aftermath justifies the means used. Even beyond the current situation in Iraq I believe that the region and the world are less safe and the cause of extremists has been served by war in Iraq, which simultaenously weakened the UN and its potential.

I also don't accept that I should just foreget about it and move-on. Too many lies, too many bodies for that.

Bruce

Al-Jazeera

It was interesting reading a few Al-Jazeera stories the last 48 hours. Despite Saddam being a mass-murderer, he's being touted as a hero (by the paper and by many Arabs). Isn't it twisted how humans can look past someone's killing of millions (?) of other humans and see him as a hero simply for resisting the Americans and Brits?

Meanwhile, it gave me great pleasure watching news clips of the 1,500 Iraqi expats in Everett (25 miles north of Seattle) celebrating in the streets yesterday.

[This message was edited by Ludwig on MONDAY 15 December 2003 at 19:26.]

quote:

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Originally posted by trickytree:
Apparently, in his 'house' they found 2 Mars bars, 2 Bounty bars, a 7-up and a hot dog!!
Political asylum in the land of the free anyone?
Paul

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Paul:

No Bounty bars in the US, sadly - unless you pay way over the odds at Brit expat stores for stuff that's past its sell-by date.

Davie

[This message was edited by Bhoyo on MONDAY 15 December 2003 at 21:43.]

So the new Saladin, the lion who repeatedly exhorted his countrymen to martyrdom, was too chickenshit to take his own advice. How typical that a bully and braggart should be unmasked as a coward.

Bagging this bastard doesn't solve the woes of Iraq - but it doesn't hurt. May he pay for his crimes and rot in hell.

Davie

Although it's hard not to feel a faint smidgen of admiration for a man capable of growing so magnificent a beard in what must have been less than ideal beard-growing conditions.

I personally think he could have made a really good Santa for the Kurdish kiddies before them US rangers got the blade out.

quote:

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Originally posted by Bruce Woodhouse:
So to whom would you hand Saddam over? They have no legal system or administration. Just release him in the centre of Baghdad with a big sign saying 'come and get him'?

Bruce

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indeed!

I bet we are still arguing about where Saddam will be tried come Novemeber 2004 but that its quickly resolved after that.

Matthew

Surely at the International Court at the Hague as they did with Slobodan Milosevic. Oh I forgot, the US decided not to sign up to that treaty

Tom

Actively enjoying it all

Just shoot the bugger...no one will complain.

Regards

Mick

quote:

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Originally posted by Tom Alves:
Surely at the International Court at the Hague as they did with Slobodan Milosevic. Oh I forgot, the US decided not to sign up to that treaty

Tom

Actively enjoying it all

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Tom's comments are inapposite. The Hague will be available (if available at all - who knows when) for the trial of international war criminals whether the US has signed up for it or not. Saddam is not a US citizen, and therefore would not be protected from the jurisdiction of that court even though the US is not a signatory. Saddam's stutus (with respect to his vulnerability to ICC jurisdiction) is not impacted one iota simply be presently being in US custody.

Of course Iraq is also not a signatory of the treaty - it's not clear to me whether Saddam will fall under the jurisdiction of the court, at least under this line of reasoning.

Milosovik is being tried under an ad hoc tribunal set up by the UN security counsel designed to prosecute criminals arising from the conflict in the Balkins. It is possible, I suppose, that an ad hoc tribunal could also be set up for Saddam. I have no idea.

As far as I can tell there really are only three venues for trying Saddam - (1) an ad hoc tribunal set up under UN charter, (2) the International Criminal Court in the Hague, or (3) the Iraqi tribunal set up by the provisional government.

We should dismiss out the outset that he could be tried under US jurisdiction. This is all but impossible. More importantly (from a practical matter) the US simply has no taste for the death penalty for political criminals like Saddam. It's simply politically impossible. Despite what all of you think about "Texas" style of justice, we resever the gas chambers for run-of-the-mill murders like child rapists/murderers and convenience store murderers. We could not have put the Rosenburgs to death today. It just isn't politically possible. The reality is that the world would not even tolerate the US putting Bin Laden to death, where we to catch him alive.

In any event, Saddam is a prisoner of war and is being treated in accordance with the Geneva convention (although he is in a slightly different catagory than a prisoner caught during major hostilities - I'm not sure what his exact Geneva status is called at this point). This means he is rightfully subject to interogation, duress and confinement - though not torture or the like. Handing him over the the Iraqis, Iranians, Jordanians, Saudi's, Serians, etc. etc. and he would be tortued to death. It is not clear whether the tribunal set up by the Iraqis comports with Geneva.

In the end, this will surely be a disaster of monumental proportions. It would been better if he had used his pistol. Handing him over the Iraqis (which, even if possible is MONTHS away, election or no election) will be met with hostility from every corner of the world, the likes of which we have not yet seen. However, handing him over to an international body will piss off the Iraqi government to no end. They are on record as saying "no deals" no matter what. Fair enough. But the reality is that the US is stuck in the middle of this particular issue. God forbid he dies in captivity (could happen - who knows).

Judd

I was going to say that Saddam would mind being shot but after I while I guess he wouldn't.

Thank you Judd. I was hoping someone would take my little stir and give a reasoned answer