How best to catalogue classical music
Posted by: Graham Russell on 21 September 2010
I'm about to re-rip a small number of classical CDs and am struggling how best to categorise them, based on composer, orchestra, performer etc.
My usual folder structure is:
Artist -> Album -> Tracks
For classical music I'm not sure whether the top level should be composer or performer.
I'd appreciate thoughts on how best to create a folder structure, and also what artist and album artist should represent in the meta data fields.
Thanks
Graham
My usual folder structure is:
Artist -> Album -> Tracks
For classical music I'm not sure whether the top level should be composer or performer.
I'd appreciate thoughts on how best to create a folder structure, and also what artist and album artist should represent in the meta data fields.
Thanks
Graham
Posted on: 21 September 2010 by likesmusic
To some extent this depends on which player you are using, and how it presents things to you. The few upnp servers I've tried do things differently, as does Squeezecenter, as does iTunes.
I've ended up with Composer -> CD - > Tracks,
so..
-- Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
---- Mozart Piano Concertos (Barenboim)
------ 1 - 01 - Piano Concerto No .. Allegro
------ 1 - 02 - etc...
It seemed to be worthwhile to use a bit of dBpoweramp jiggerypokery to put the disc number (for multi disc sets) and the 'track' number before the true name of the track, as some upnp servers seem to sort tracks alphabetically when doing a folder view, though as I'm using squeezecenter at the moment that was a 'just in case' thing.
If I were you I'd do a few, and see how they get presented to you by the software you are using. Try a muti-disc set, a multi-composer disc, and a various artists disc too .. and beware of very very long filenames which can result from very very long tags.
You can agonise forever .. should it be "Mozart, W.A" or "Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart" .. is the album artist "Barenboim", "Barenboim/Solti", "Barenboim/Solti/VPO" ..
I've ended up with Composer -> CD - > Tracks,
so..
-- Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
---- Mozart Piano Concertos (Barenboim)
------ 1 - 01 - Piano Concerto No .. Allegro
------ 1 - 02 - etc...
It seemed to be worthwhile to use a bit of dBpoweramp jiggerypokery to put the disc number (for multi disc sets) and the 'track' number before the true name of the track, as some upnp servers seem to sort tracks alphabetically when doing a folder view, though as I'm using squeezecenter at the moment that was a 'just in case' thing.
If I were you I'd do a few, and see how they get presented to you by the software you are using. Try a muti-disc set, a multi-composer disc, and a various artists disc too .. and beware of very very long filenames which can result from very very long tags.
You can agonise forever .. should it be "Mozart, W.A" or "Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart" .. is the album artist "Barenboim", "Barenboim/Solti", "Barenboim/Solti/VPO" ..
Posted on: 21 September 2010 by pcstockton
quote:For classical music I'm not sure whether the top level should be composer or performer.
I use composer as artist.....
I then tag the Album Name with other info such as orchestra, conductor etc.
Folder Name:
Edgard Varese - Complete Works (1987) {Pierre Boulez, Cleveland SO} [FLAC]
Tags:
Artist - Edgard Varese
Album - Complete Works {Pierre Boulez, Cleveland SO}
Year - 1987
I really dont use any other tags. I dont care for genre, so whatever EAC gives there is fine.
The one instance (rare) I dont use a composer as the "Artist" is like Andreas Segovia or Yo-yo Ma playing pieces by multiple composers.
-Patrick
Posted on: 21 September 2010 by Jon Myles
quote:Originally posted by Graham Russell:
I'm about to re-rip a small number of classical CDs and am struggling how best to categorise them, based on composer, orchestra, performer etc.
My usual folder structure is:
Artist -> Album -> Tracks
For classical music I'm not sure whether the top level should be composer or performer.
I'd say it really is up to you and how you search on whatever replay device you're using. I personally go for the artist first.
On the (admittedly few!) classical discs I have I go for the composer. Because that's what I'm looking for and then you can drill down into the various versions you may have of that composition.
Hope that helps.
Posted on: 21 September 2010 by Geoff P
I ended up creating two main folders 'Artist' and 'Composer'.
For major composers that I have multiple works / versions like Bach and Beethoven amongst other they got a sub folder under 'Composers' and the titling of the various CDs involved was rearranged in dBPoweramp during rip to have <Artist>. followed by <work> followed by <Disc No> for multi CD works such as Bach's WTC.
For the one offs I filed in 'Artist' again using the same 'labelling' sequence in dBPoweramp. One of the subfolders under 'Artist' was named 'Various'and that's where CD's with collections of music from multiple composers and / or artists ended up with a descriptive label sequence.
Geoff
For major composers that I have multiple works / versions like Bach and Beethoven amongst other they got a sub folder under 'Composers' and the titling of the various CDs involved was rearranged in dBPoweramp during rip to have <Artist>. followed by <work> followed by <Disc No> for multi CD works such as Bach's WTC.
For the one offs I filed in 'Artist' again using the same 'labelling' sequence in dBPoweramp. One of the subfolders under 'Artist' was named 'Various'and that's where CD's with collections of music from multiple composers and / or artists ended up with a descriptive label sequence.
Geoff
Posted on: 21 September 2010 by Aleg
I use two approaches in one directory tree depending on the kind of CD / performer.
By default I use /composer/type of work/album (performer)/tracks
Where type of work is orchestral/choral/piano/chamber/etc
For the major performers I'm likely to search for like Bartoli or Richter etc, I use
/performer/composer - album title/tracks
In the tags I always use the performer as artist and use as album title the combination of composer - album title.
I do it like this because some of my mediaplayers don't support the composer tag. It's not ideal but workable.
-
aleg
By default I use /composer/type of work/album (performer)/tracks
Where type of work is orchestral/choral/piano/chamber/etc
For the major performers I'm likely to search for like Bartoli or Richter etc, I use
/performer/composer - album title/tracks
In the tags I always use the performer as artist and use as album title the combination of composer - album title.
I do it like this because some of my mediaplayers don't support the composer tag. It's not ideal but workable.
-
aleg
Posted on: 21 September 2010 by okli
You could take a look at this white paper for Naim extended database here. It points the challenges with catalogs with classical music and gives some samples how Naim solves the problems with their tagging engine in HDX.
Posted on: 22 September 2010 by Eloise
As others have said ... it depends a lot on your requirements and what application you use for playback and what information you want to (easily) reference.
My own methods is
Artist field - usually contains the Orchestra, but where major "star" is soloist use their name (e.g. London Symphony Orchestra or Sir Yehudi Menuhin).
Album - the actual CD title prefixed by the common surname of the composer (e.g. Elgar: Enigma Variations; Mendelssohn: Violin Concerto).
Track title - the piece followed by movement (e.g. Violin Concerto in E Minor: 1. Allegro Molto Appassionato)
Grouping - the piece of music title. Some people use the Album field for just the composition title.
Genre - simply "Classical" currently but I've been considering amending this to "Classical - Baroque - Symphony" etc though I don't think with the number of classical recordings it's worthwhile.
With iTunes smart playlists I then have various views for classical music (laid out differently) depending how I want to choose the music.
Eloise
My own methods is
Artist field - usually contains the Orchestra, but where major "star" is soloist use their name (e.g. London Symphony Orchestra or Sir Yehudi Menuhin).
Album - the actual CD title prefixed by the common surname of the composer (e.g. Elgar: Enigma Variations; Mendelssohn: Violin Concerto).
Track title - the piece followed by movement (e.g. Violin Concerto in E Minor: 1. Allegro Molto Appassionato)
Grouping - the piece of music title. Some people use the Album field for just the composition title.
Genre - simply "Classical" currently but I've been considering amending this to "Classical - Baroque - Symphony" etc though I don't think with the number of classical recordings it's worthwhile.
With iTunes smart playlists I then have various views for classical music (laid out differently) depending how I want to choose the music.
Eloise
Posted on: 22 September 2010 by likesmusic
If you're into iTunes, you can use a combination of Playlists, Playlist Folders, Smart Playlists and the Grouping field to create a tree structured view for more or less any structure you fancy.
Classical
-- Beethoven
---- Symphonies
------- Symphony 1
--------Symphony 2
etc.
The iTunes Grouping tag is very useful for the construct of a 'Work'. And since iTunes lets you arrange and name playlists and folders in any way you like, you aren't constrained/irritated by sorting issues either.
Such a pity there is such resistance to Airplay support.
Classical
-- Beethoven
---- Symphonies
------- Symphony 1
--------Symphony 2
etc.
The iTunes Grouping tag is very useful for the construct of a 'Work'. And since iTunes lets you arrange and name playlists and folders in any way you like, you aren't constrained/irritated by sorting issues either.
Such a pity there is such resistance to Airplay support.
Posted on: 22 September 2010 by Mr Underhill
Hi Graham,
Just to be different!
My directory structure look like:
/Audio
../Blues
../Christian
../Classical
../Club-House
../Folk
../Motown
../new
../Pop
../Rock
../Soul
../Soundtrack
../Vocal
In fact I have this repeated twice, once for CDs and another for HiDef.
/Classical directory expands to:
/Classical
../Ballet
../Choral
../Opera
../Sonata&Concerto
../../Horn
../../Organ
../../Piano
../../Quartet
../../Strings
../../Violin
../Symphonic
../Various
Each of these directories then splits to the individual composers.
Martin
Just to be different!
My directory structure look like:
/Audio
../Blues
../Christian
../Classical
../Club-House
../Folk
../Motown
../new
../Pop
../Rock
../Soul
../Soundtrack
../Vocal
In fact I have this repeated twice, once for CDs and another for HiDef.
/Classical directory expands to:
/Classical
../Ballet
../Choral
../Opera
../Sonata&Concerto
../../Horn
../../Organ
../../Piano
../../Quartet
../../Strings
../../Violin
../Symphonic
../Various
Each of these directories then splits to the individual composers.
Martin
Posted on: 22 September 2010 by Graham Russell
Thanks all for the thoughts.
I will have a think....
I will have a think....
Posted on: 22 September 2010 by pcstockton
quote:Each of these directories then splits to the individual composers.
Whoa... That is detailed. So you could technically have Mozart spread throughout every classical genre folder?
It just shows we all listen in different ways, and our tagging/folder structures reflect that.
I do all browsing by artist/composer. I never search by album or genre. I dont use genre at all. never.
If I want to find something very specific i use "Search" in Foobar.
I couldn't imagine trying to select a genre for 90% of my music.
I did for some time use the "genre" tag for the Record Label which I liked. I stopped though because I put the label (if relevant to me) in the "album" tag in "{}"
But I am seeing that everyone does it differently. It seems to correspond to how one listens.
-Patrick
Posted on: 22 September 2010 by likesmusic
A lot depends on your browser and you; some people may use tags to support all their browsing so for them the folder structure is nearly irrelevant, others may prefer to use the folder structure to browse, or both.
You can go nuts quite easily.
I just ripped William Christies performance of Monteverdis Vespers. He breaks up the performance with a couple of Sonatas by Cima. Should they go in the same folder? A different one? They 'belong' to the work as Christie performs it, but not as Monteverdi wrote it.
You just have to pick the least aggravating solution; there are no easy answers.
You can go nuts quite easily.
I just ripped William Christies performance of Monteverdis Vespers. He breaks up the performance with a couple of Sonatas by Cima. Should they go in the same folder? A different one? They 'belong' to the work as Christie performs it, but not as Monteverdi wrote it.
You just have to pick the least aggravating solution; there are no easy answers.
Posted on: 22 September 2010 by Guido Fawkes
The present day composer refuses to die.quote:Folder Name:
Edgard Varese - Complete Works (1987) {Pierre Boulez, Cleveland SO} [FLAC]
Posted on: 22 September 2010 by Alamanka
Trying to keep it simple, my own approach is based on folders.
I like the consistency between the file structure and the navigation in the UPnP media server.
I use the last name of the composer to allow alphabetical sort and search.
The structure is like this:
- Classical (genre = folder)
--- Beethoven (composer = folder)
----- Symphonie no 2 & 4 - Furtwangler, Vienna Orchestra (CD title - Director, Orchestra = folder)
------- 01. Sinfonie Nr2 D-dur, op36 - Adagio Molto - Allegro Con Brio (track = file)
For now, I find it easy to navigate.
However it requires some manual work on creating/renaming folders as EAC/Freedb do not natively organize things in this way.
Note: I am using the freeware approach (EAC, Foobar) with .Flac format. (I am still wondering if I should not use .Wav file instead, as this is more universally supported, but this is a different topic)
I like the consistency between the file structure and the navigation in the UPnP media server.
I use the last name of the composer to allow alphabetical sort and search.
The structure is like this:
- Classical (genre = folder)
--- Beethoven (composer = folder)
----- Symphonie no 2 & 4 - Furtwangler, Vienna Orchestra (CD title - Director, Orchestra = folder)
------- 01. Sinfonie Nr2 D-dur, op36 - Adagio Molto - Allegro Con Brio (track = file)
For now, I find it easy to navigate.
However it requires some manual work on creating/renaming folders as EAC/Freedb do not natively organize things in this way.
Note: I am using the freeware approach (EAC, Foobar) with .Flac format. (I am still wondering if I should not use .Wav file instead, as this is more universally supported, but this is a different topic)
Posted on: 22 September 2010 by pcstockton
quote:I am using the freeware approach (EAC, Foobar) with .Flac format. (I am still wondering if I should not use .Wav file instead, as this is more universally supported, but this is a different topic)
FLAC is only less supported in ONE aspect. iTunes.
Considering iTunes and Foobar both suck at playing WAVs, it is basically a moot point. EVERYTHING out there besides Apple products/software supports FLAC. It is by far the most ubiquitous codec that can be easily tagged.
-Patrick
Posted on: 22 September 2010 by Alamanka
quote:Originally posted by pcstockton:
FLAC is only less supported in ONE aspect. iTunes.
Considering iTunes and Foobar both suck at playing WAVs, it is basically a moot point. EVERYTHING out there besides Apple products/software supports FLAC. It is by far the most ubiquitous codec that can be easily tagged.
-Patrick
Patrick,
Before reading your post, I did not know it was possible to make Windows Media Player/Center play FLAC. I thought WMP was exactly like iTunes. But following your post, I just did some research and found it is possible to add drivers and filters to make it compatible.
Thank you for your post. As usual, it is always appreciated.
Posted on: 22 September 2010 by Mr Underhill
quote:Originally posted by pcstockton:quote:Each of these directories then splits to the individual composers.
Whoa... That is detailed. So you could technically have Mozart spread throughout every classical genre folder?
-Patrick
Hi Patrick,
Yes.
Generally I know that I am in the mood to listen to a symphony, or a choral piece. I then dive into that directory and make a choice.
The only time this can be a bit less obvious is when I am trying to find something that might be rock OR pop. But then I use CMP, and so I'll order by artist rather than by genre.
... or use foobar to do a search as you suggest.
M
Posted on: 22 September 2010 by Mr Underhill
quote:Originally posted by Mr Underhill:quote:Originally posted by pcstockton:quote:Each of these directories then splits to the individual composers.
Whoa... That is detailed. So you could technically have Mozart spread throughout every classical genre folder?
-Patrick
Hi Patrick,
Yes.
Generally I know that I am in the mood to listen to a symphony, or a choral piece. I then dive into that genre and make a choice.
The only time this can be a bit less obvious is when I am trying to find something that might be rock OR pop. But then I use CMP, and so I'll order by artist rather than by genre.
... or use foobar to do a search as you suggest.
M