Active 135s or 500

Stuart,

This is my first post, so excuse me if I this is upside down or in Spanish ..

My system is CDS2/52/4x135/SNAXO+SuperCap/SBL. I have heard the 500 both passive and had two active in my system for several weeks when they first came out. For me, active 135's are much more musically rewarding than a passive 500.

I don't want to talk about detail or timing or leading edges. I am happy listening to a great piece of music on a transistor radio, but when a really good system gels with the listener, something indefinable happens. Call it chemistry. My system has chemistry and I am very wary of spending lots of money and losing it. More than once I have had the experience of trying a new and supposedly better piece of kit and being enthralled with new-found levels of detail, bass or whatever and then slowly losing interest in playing music. I never cease to be amazed when my old gear is re-connected that rather than reaching for my cheque book, I breath a sigh of relief, because the chemistry has returned and I don't have to have sleepless nights planning my next bank job.

Of course this wasn't the case going from a 72 to a 52 or 250 to 135's or passive to active, where going backwards left a huge gap that could only be filled with suitcases full of cash.

My current system evolved over many years because every upgrade left me feeling that something was still missing, until finally I didn't. Apart from re-capping I haven't touched anything since I got the CDS2 (when was that released ?). I have been very lucky to have heard some amazing systems (CDS2/52/3x500/DBL) and have had quite a lot of the new stuff in my house (I recently had a pair of SL2's for a week. At the moment my wish-list is empty. I have yet to hear either of the new 52's in my system and the SL2's could be a contender after a lot more running in.

NBL's gave me a headache but they were new and in a concrete bunker. I can't go down that route because I would need another 2 135's and a SNAXO 3, but you can. If I were you, I would go active with the SBL's. I have read a lot about their limitations but active 135's really bring them to life. If this isn't enough, head for active NBL's.

Hope this helps.

My 2 cents.

Go for either the NBL or DBL first. I am running NBLs passively with 135s and they sound wonderful. Some people have made the same comment about DBLs. I haven't heard active SBLs but my NBLs smoke passive SBLs (previous speakers) and I have read posts of people perfering passive NBLs to active SBLs. The NBLs bring so much more music, it's actually shocking.

John

quote:

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The 135s are old style (around 15 years old) and have never been serviced, but they do sound fine. I was planning on having them serviced at a later date when this was really needed.

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Hi Stuart,

Given the age of your 135s, along with the goal of taking SBLs active, I would suggest that you first get the amps serviced(along with any other gear 10 years old or so). My 1985 135s still sounded 'good' (so I thought) until they came back from service. It was like getting two 'new' boxes...:-)

cheers,
jim

Thanks for the replies chaps, keep them coming. Interesting opinion Minky, I am now seriously considering retaining the 135's.

Stuart

Stuart,

You should definitely have Naim give your 135's the once-over. I had mine done a while ago and was very happy with the result. The 52 is an amazing amp. My upgrade from a 72/Hicap to a 52 was a revelation.

As for passive 500 vs active 135's, all I can offer is that beyond the initial wow factor you need to spend time with these systems to see how well they do the job of connecting you to the music. My preference is for active 135's because they give me the ability to listen to music loud for extended periods of time without fatigue. My system still gives me goose bumps, 5 years after my last upgrade. I found the 500's more hi-fi but couldn't stay in the same room with them. No doubt I am in the vast minority on this, and maybe you will also disagree, but don't fall into the trap of going down a path based on first impressions.

Tom,

Have you had a chance to compare 52/252/552 ? Do the 252/552 build on the strengths of the 52 or are they (like the 500) a slightly different beast ?

Thanks Tom,

As I suspected, it's probably a choice of sticking with the 52 or going to the 552. My dealer/mate, who is running in 552/500/SL2's reckons that going back to a 52 makes the system sound "broken". About 15 years ago the same bloke installed my first 250, and said somthing very similar about 135's as he was leaving ..

Anyway, it's good to know that there are other people out there that don't view the new upgrade path as cut and dry.

[This message was edited by Minky on MONDAY 20 January 2003 at 22:34.]

Stuart--

The 500. Absolutely.

I've heard SBLs, NBLs, and DBLs active with 135s (SNAXO, Supercap) vs passive with a 500 (and later active with 500's (!))and the passive 500 is so much better than the 135s I just shake my head. And I don't mean that as a knock on the active 135 systems--they were terrific.

I respect the opinions of the folks who prefer active 135s, but when I've heard the comparison it has not been close--the passive 500 is substantially better. And the better setup the system the bigger the differences.

Best of luck--and enjoy whatever you end up with!

Bob

Bob,

Is your opinion based on one-night stands or a meaningful relationship ? The fastest car in the range isn't necessarily the one you want to drive to work every day. My system probably isn't the one I would choose if I just wanted to impress the guests ..

Something that occurs to me, and this may be completely wrong, but after listening to the NAP500 I wondered if Naim had built a BIG, American style amp to compete in the American market, and I couldn't help noticing that you are an American.

I would hope that the 500 is better for that price tag. I'd dearly love to hear one but you'd have to chain me to the couch because I'd probably do what I could to own one so take my credit card away. Oh you don't have to I don't have credit that high. They'd never take it.

I just received teh new catalog from my dealer and would dearly love to hear the 300s powering a 252. Bet they sound sweet. Now I'll go back to my lowly system and marvel at the quality that I do have. Last night's listening was xhear pleasure.

Wolf's comments raise something that has been bothering me for a while. With the "old" range, you pretty much knew that you were getting more bang for your bucks because as you went up through the range, the stuff got bigger and heavier, so more and bigger transformers etc. The new range appears to have components that are similar in size and weight (252/552, 300/500) but vastly different in price (the 552 is twice the price of the 252 but doesn't seem to be that different externally). Are the new 500 series components the price they are because :

1)They cost twice as much to build.

2)Price positioning (price driving the perception of quality, regardless of true cost - "they must be good for that price"). This draws in the loonies that wouldn't want it if it cost less.

3)A combination of R&D cost, unit cost and expected units that will be manufactured. If the number of units is set to a higher number, the R&D cost becomes less significant and the retail cost becomes more directly related to the unit cost. Pegging the number of units to a low level puts a greater share of the R&D cost on each unit, raising the price.

Yes, if it sounds better, it is better, but I would still like to be reassured that the price of the new gear has some relationship to its actual cost. I would hate to think that a NAP552 is just a de-tuned NAP252.

This is not a conspiracy theory. It's just that the problem with Naim gear is that is takes a while before it gives of it's best. I had a pair of SL2's for a week and they struggled to match my SBL's. The NAP500's were less than convincing. Based on experience, after burn-in/warm up, the new gear may well enhance my appreciation of music (the point after all) but I doubt that I will ever be able to trial any of it for long enough to find out. What I am left with is purchasing based on trust, and price precludes this. I guess I am looking for more clues.

Minky--

Eminently fair question. Though I don't own a 500, I have been able to hear Chris Koster's system multiple times on different occasions for extended periods of time. I've also gotten to try a lot of variations at the shop I used to work at.

Finally, as an aside--I find that I can identify the better piece of gear very quickly in an in-store dem. I agree it is best to try something at home before buying to insure the gear provides enough value to the purchaser relative to the purchase price.

Also, as a trivial aside--surely you meant you would hate to think that a 252 is simply a "de-tuned" 552?

Best,

Bob

Hi Bob,

Yes, I meant 252/552. I know what you mean about shop demos. I tend to have two ways of listening to a system. I guess that it's a left/right brain thing. In a shop I tend to listen to the system and it's pretty obvious what the differences are in hi-fi terms. At home, the experience is more emotional than intellectual. Also, in a shop it isn't always obvious which bit is doing what, and what the result of transplanting one of the components into my (these days) totally different system will be. I am very pleased to hear that the 552 costs a lot because it is expensive to build and it does sound great in other systems, but after paying $40,000NZD for one (more than the average yearly salary in NZ), how would I feel if musically, the result was less than positive ?

As people progress up the Naim hierarchy, they are on a mission to find a certain sound. They may not really be sure what that sound is, but they will know it when they find it. Along the way, changes will be made that will bring the sound closer to "perfection" and mistakes will take them further from their goal and more adjustments will be required to restore the balance. You can end up with the same result but with more gear (and less cash).

I feel that I am very close to MY perfect sound, but being human and essentially greedy, if it is possible to get closer, I want it. What I don't want, especially with the stakes so high, is to make any more mistakes.

With a separate spur 2,5 sqmm 4*135s are better,
with separate spur 10 sqmm the nap500 was better.

Ulrich

hockman

how did the 252 home eval went for you? did it work well with the 500/DBL combination? I think it's still not quite like the non-naim piece.

Roland

Hey, come on, let us know: what is that non-naim piece?

- Jun