What's Naim Good For???

Hmmm, sort of the opposite actually!

I do not listen to a lot of classical music but some of the most significant increases in pleasure with upgrading have come when listening to familiar classical pieces. My tastes may be changing of course but my system now makes buying and exploring classical 'worthwhile' for the first time.

SBL's in particular seem to have an easy flowing 'grace' which for the first time made me really sit and listen to some classical stuff which I had previously scoffed at as 'background'. The 52 does the same, helping me to actually find classical music 'interesting' rather than just 'nice'.

I have a varied music collection and I reckon the system hangs well together on all genres. Those discs that never quite sing are usually merely poorly produced, whatever the musical style.

Bruce

Greg

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I mean the overall sonority produced by the orchestra at any given time. Richard Strauss is a master of this and Debussy has a different take on it - both composers were not compelling on my Naim system.

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I did not realise that R Strauss or D Bussey composed music to be replayed on hi-fi or if they did, what gear did they compose for?

cheers

Nigel

I have hundreds of classical records and over 200 classical CDs. Pre-Naim, my Rega P3 would have a classical record on it most of the time. Music would just ooze out of the system. The Naim bits made some genres better and classical tough to listen to. Even with an LP12.

The LP12 is now delivering good classical via the Sony through the same speakers I used with the Naim bits.

And I'm not looking ot go to 52 territory here - so that the top-of-the-line kit does it isn't relevant to me.

Nigel - that's 'compelling' not 'composing'.

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

Must have been all those Yamaha band instruments...

No, actually, Greg, you'd probably have appreciated the difference between the first range of Naim CD players (your CD3 had the Philips filter/DAC chipset) and the current mid-/upper-range players (CDX and CDS II)...these are the players that bent the earth round...

I listen to orchestras both live and recorded - LP, CD, & FM. In fact I listen almost exclusively to orchestras.

For me, if I have the choice, it's either live or Naim. In fact, I'd rather listen to trhe Naim than to uninspired live playing.

I don't feel I'm losing much via the Naim, compared to live.

Greg, Maybe you heard Strauss and Debussy as they really are!

Phil

I can't agree that Naim kit doesn't "do classical". True, I don't use a Naim CDP (yet!) or speakers.

I would never buy a component that only worked well with some of the music I like. and not all. The main reason for my original Naim purchase, and continued loyalty to the brand, is because, for me, the Naim amps are the best sounding I've found for all the music I listen to - classical, rock, jazz, blues.......

Chris L

Nick -

I wasn't ignoring your post - it wasn't there whey I wrote my first reply(!).

Lots of good stuff here - plus the price drop on the Nait 5 - and I'm willing to go for another listen.

Paul - I HAVE heard Naim on all Mana (this is a proper setup, no?) - didn't solve the problem. Better Naim electronics than I had at the time as well (102 vs. my 72; CDX vs my CD3). CDs seem considerably worse than LPs, FWIW.

Dave - I tried a CDX. It did more of the Good Naim Stuff but still wouldn't gel with classical *to my satisfaction*. It was good in an analytical sense, but the music just didn't flow. It used to be that I couldn't put on a record without listening all the way through. I've yet to hear a CD-based Naim system that I just wanted to listen to with classical.

I've felt that it was a combination of CDs not being classical-friendly and the darker, less tonal quality of Naim electronics that were to blame.

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

'Space' in a word.

There was a freebie Chesky disc with a recent issue of HFN&RR. It was really weird on my all Naim system. I could hear the spatial information in the recording struggling to get out, but the soundstage was pretty flat on SBL's.

Loads of information and detail to be sure, but very little '3D'.

My local dealer has the luxury of taking home all sorts of exotica, but comes back to Naim because nothing else 'boogies' quite like it.

He predominantly listens to Jazz.

I listen to rock/folk/electronic stuff. NEVER anything classical.

Mind you; DAVOHORN who has graced these pages in cyberspace, listens to stuff that boogies, but hates the sound of Naim kit and uses an SACD player, valve amps and horn speakers.

Funny old business, eh?

Your notes about 'space' and round earth stuff may be the issue. The feeling of venue is very important to me with classical. I don't need to see how big the hall is or how many lights there are in the chandelier, but I like the feeling of an orchestra as a coherent entity.

The Naim systems I have owned and heard tended to "disembody" the musicians - as if each part was recorded in a separate studio and then mixed together - rather than all recorded in one space while playing one piece of music. Maybe this is made worse by my ProAcs which let me know all too clearly that the spatial stuff is off.

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

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as if each part was recorded in a separate studio and then mixed together - rather than all recorded in one space while playing one piece of music.

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...which is a typical artifact of poorly-recorded multiple-microphone configurations.

Truth is a bitter pill to swallow, especially when it reveals a lack of care or attention to detail in the arts.

Dave -

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...which is a typical artifact of poorly-recorded multiple-microphone configurations. Truth is a bitter pill to swallow, especially when it reveals a lack of care or attention to detail in the arts.

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But these same (daft, I know) recordings are enjoyable on other systems. May be that the other systems are less accurate somehow, but the end result is more enjoyable. Hum...

Stallion -

I know you worship the ground that Joe Petrik walks on, but *PLEASE* stop brainlessly emulating him.

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

...like Joe too.

Have a nice weekend Marco.

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

Marco

Leave off the Barolo until after 8.00pm

Regards

Mick........about to start on the malt

What I want to know is how naim kit or any other for that matter knows what type of music is on so that it can begin to sound crap?

Surely if it 'does' music it will do classical.

Unless classical is not music but thats another thread...

As you're a junior member, I'll go easy on you

It's been a long road - I had Naim kit for over 3 years and never had it working to my long-term satisfaction. Even so, it was a difficult decision to sell it on. I dislike the whole process of buying and selling hi-fi and believe that Naim is really great stuff.

The Sony I have does things my Naim kit did not - no joke - and I'm not alone on this. My wife and best friend (also a Naim owner) agrees. The opposite is also true and maybe it is down to what one wants from the system. FWIW, my Sony is ES series - which is not junk although very different from Naim. It was adequate in my old apartment, but isn't up to filling the much larger space of our new townhouse given the speakers I'm using, volume levels we want, etc.

I'm seriously considering Naim again - there is something about the company that I really like and I would like to give the stuff another chance. But it isn't easy and the dealers around here are not into home loans and such. Many here *insist* on home loans before purchase and I cannot loan the kit - not even a Nait - to try at home. And, of course, the prices are a good bit higher here in the US than the UK (see 'Price Drop' thread for a recent discussion).

So, you see, it isn't so easy.

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

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Surely if it 'does' music it will do classical.

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Not so. Components and speakers are often accused (rightly) of choosing the music for the listener. Some systems don't slam at all and that makes alot of rhythmic stuff uninteresting. Some kit slams but doesn't play a tune, etc.

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

Greg,

Let me start by saying I neither agree or disagree with your statements that kicked off this thread. Hi-fi gear ranges widely in how it sounds and in the way that it presents music. I've heard too much great sounding gear and a fair bit that was ho-hum and for me at least a part of it boils down to individual preferences.

But here is the point of my post--
I think at least a part of the problem may be traced to the transparency of the speakers used in a system and another element may be the transparency of the electronics. Getting these two things to complement one another is not a trivial matter.
When I talk about the transparency of the speakers, I'm talking about their ability to resolve and communicate, in a musically and artistically relevant way, the kind of low-level detail and emotional nuances you seem to allude to in your post. Heavy-handed speakers can't do this as well as speakes with finesse. For a common frame of reference here I'd compare the sound of Quads to the sound of Epos's. Both are very good speakers but they sound completely different. To recreate a sense of space and subtle tonal color, IMHO, a speaker with delicacy and nuance will do a better job. For me that would mean I'd prefer the quad or a speaker like that. To someone who's been brainwashed into concentrating on PRAT, the EPOS might be the one that sounds right. To hear any sense of nuance and space, speakers (again IMHO) must be transparent and refined.

The other kind of transparency has to do with the sound of the electronics and the necessary and inevitable comprises made by the designer in the development of a piece of gear. From this point of view, a well-designed piece of Sony gear (or any other higher-quality so-called "mass market" gear) may do a pretty good job. Why? Not because it's actually objectively "better", but because of the ability of the designer to define and execute the compromises and how they will affect the sound. For example (IMHO) this explains why the lower end naim gear produces a satisfying sound when used together in a system but sometimes fails to do so when used in a system that is less well balanced. The kinds of complaints you read on this forum about the sound of cd3's, 3.5's etc. when used via an 82 or 52--I don't seem to read as many complaints about them when used via, say, a nait, 32.5 or 72. IMHO this is because the ambitions of the designer were less lofty with these lower price pieces of equipment. They all have strengths and weaknesses, but their strengths complement eachother while their weaknesses aren't shown up too bad. They have an innate ability to "veil" whatever shortcomings in the source people complain about when used with more revealing, transparent gear.

Now to your observations about your Sony equipment. IMHO (again) I say that truly, without listening to your system, no one on this Forum can say anything reasonable about your "complaints" about the sound of Naim. In your system, with your speakers it is entirely possible that the Sony gear sounds more satisfying. Doesn't reality provide for this possibility? Also, isn't it possible that you value the sonic compromises present in your system more than those you heard with your Naim equipment?

For what it's worth, I think the importance of *contentment* with one's system cannot be overstated. After all, that's what allows us to all stop shopping for equipment and sit down and enjoy the music, isn't it?

I can't tell from your post if you are really satisfied with your Sony setup. If you are, then I commend that you invest your money in music and invest your time in listening. If you are not, then take the time to audition systems from multiple manufacturers (even of various vintages and price-points) while you make up your mind what you like.

Enjoy the search for satisfaction!

Marku

[This message was edited by Markus on FRIDAY 26 April 2002 at 22:13.]

...thank you for your even and well-written reply.

I'm using ProAc speakers and these were highly recommended by my now-defunct dealer to use with my Naim kit. I always felt the CD3 was shown up by the 72/hi/140/ProAcs downstream and this may have very much been at the root of the problem.

As to the Sony, I am neither fully satisfied with it nor stating that it is better than Naim. If I believed both to be true, I would not have posted here as that would be just plain rude. There is *something* that it does that Naim did not do for me with my sources & speakers, but it is not completely satisfactory. The room it is in now is just too much for it, at least driving the ProAcs. I'm also not convinced that ProAcs are the most fun speakers around. At a demo a few weeks ago, I much preferred Totem Sttafs to my ProAcs and Response 1s - and this was on the end of Naim.

"Just get out and go liosten" is always good advice. There are two Naim dealers in my area - one does not carry much Naim at all and the other is not particularly welcoming. Neither, to my knowledge, offer units for home demo (deja vu audio may; I've not checked with them recently) and demos in rooms with gobs of other speakers, etc. is daft. Its tough being interested in this stuff around here. I wish we had dealers like those in the UK.

Thank you again for your insightful response.

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

I really find so little to relate to in what has been said in the early part of this thread that I just have to comment.

I listen to all kinds of music and even my down-market Naim kit makes me want to listen to more and more and more music and more and more different types.

I strolled into Linn in Glasgow on Wednesday lunchtime out of curiosity only and was very kindly invited into the dem room to listen to Linn Komri speakers, driven my a wall full of power amps - about 10 of them literally attached to the wall - source, top of the range Linn CD player. Bass was phenomenal, smoothness of presentation was unbelievable, I probably did not have time to appreciate what I was listening to, and the service from the staff was second to none. I have no idea of the total value of the kit. I was told - but it went in one ear and out the other. Seem to remember £70k amps, £30k speakers, £10k CD player.

Why am I telling you this. Well I came back home and listened to Carol Kidd - All My Tomorrows; Vivaldi - the Four Seasons (Nigel); A London Concert (Handel, Babell, Arne, Festing and others) performed by John Holloway, Jaap Ter Linden, Lars Ulrik Mortensen; Davy Spillane - A Place among the Stones; and Jazz at the Pawnshop and was absolutely delighted with it all. My Naim equipment makes me listen, makes me concentrate, makes we want more. I love it. I can listen to £110k of equipment and come home and thoroughly enjoy what I have.

Terry

Gregs comments have touched a nerve with me. I have a modest system admittedly, nait 3/ planet 2000/doublets. I listen mainly to classical music and much of his perceptions mirror mine. I like the nait and its the component I would least like to part with. Its build inspires confidence and looks great. Hi-fi is pricey in new zealand and there is no 2nd hand market in naim. However I expect to be in the U.K shortly and am looking forward to listening to alot of gear. I guess Ill just keep a open mind

regards Ian

Densen does the PR&T, tune, air, space and blackness thing all at the same time.

So does a CDX when used with the above.

The CDS2 - and some more!

Also, I have heard all-Naim kit do wonders to classical music - when it is placed on QS Ref in conjunction with Music Works Block and leads.

Regards,

Steve.

The proof of the pudding...

Densen duz da P-R&T, tune, air, space an' blackness shit all at da damn same
time. True dat.

So's duz some C-D-fuckin'-X when 'esploited wit' da damn above.

Da C-D-S-fuckin'-2 - an' some kinda' mo'!

Also, I have heard all-Naim kit do haid-scratches t' classical beat - when it
be placed on Q-S Ref in conjuncshun wit' Beat Works Block an' laids.

Regards,

Steve.

The proof of the pudding...

no problems with classical

I remember what clinched my decision to purchase a Naim CDplayer: I loved the way string lines are presented, in a visceral way that no other player had. Perhaps it made a difference that I'm referring to the CD5? The 5 series does have a little dash of round-earth qualities, and I think that's what Greg is talking about.

I hardly ever listen to rock, so I can't really compare the way classical is represented, but obviously classical has rythmic aspects too. That's just a funny prejudice of the foot-tapping crowd. Rock is more insistent and monotonous in its rythmic aspects.

Naim doesn't present a classical orchestra (or rock band) in a sound stage, but, as someone remarked a while ago, this sound stage business is an extremely artificial gimmick. If you go to a concert (and very few people seem to do so) you will never ever hear the oboe coming from its physical location on the stage. The best concert halls are famous for the way the sound is moulded and mixed not to form a "sound stage".

Multi-channel is of course the next step for this gimmick.

So I have no complaints.

(The jive talk stuff is soo unfunny. Please quit.)

Herman

"I've yet to hear a CD-based Naim system that I just wanted to listen to with classical."

Pop round any time.

The thing with strings is - you need a well broken-in CDX+ with above average speakers. But I've listened to Naim's Intro-based system at shows 'do classical' superbly.

And Naim kit does Piano music like no other.

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Blzebub who is ,sadly IMO , now confined to the Mana Forum.

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No he isn't confined to the Mana Forum.

He still posts here, but as his real Naim.

Regards,

Steve.

The proof of the pudding...