DBTs and hypocrisy.

Posted by: syd on 20 November 2003

In a wholly unrelated thread I've been conducting an exchange between myself and Andrew Thomas on my belief that he's a hypocrit.

It goes like this

Andrew Thomas
At the risk (once again) of sounding like a shill for Billy Woodman...

I went from Aktiv Isobariks (3xLK280/SPARK) to ATC Active 50's and have never looked back... The ATC's are just vastly superior to Isobariks (I know, I know, I'm wasting my time). And for £7.5K amps/crossover included the 50's are a relative steal. Go hear a pair - trust your ears

You could take the money you'd save on naim amps and get a better front end, should you feel so inclined.

My work here is done

My response

quote:
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Originally posted by AndrewThomas:
At the risk (once again) of sounding like a shill for Billy Woodman...

I went from Aktiv Isobariks (3xLK280/SPARK) to ATC Active 50's and have never looked back... The ATC's are just vastly superior to Isobariks (I know, I know, I'm wasting my time). And for £7.5K amps/crossover included the 50's are a relative steal. _Go hear a pair - trust your ears_

You could take the money you'd save on naim amps and get a better front end, should you feel so inclined.

My work here is done
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Andrew,
_Go hear a pair - trust your ears_
you really are a Hypocritical Tosser. And no just because you put in a smiley doesn't make it the least bit humourous.

Yours in Music

Syd

Andrews reply

quote:
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Originally posted by syd:

Andrew,
_ _Go hear a pair - trust your ears_ _

you really are a Hypocritical Tosser.
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I would be a hypocrite if I had claimed there was no difference between speakers.

[This message was edited by AndrewThomas on WEDNESDAY 19 November 2003 at 22:27.]

My reply

quote:
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Originally posted by AndrewThomas:

quote:
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Originally posted by syd:

Andrew,
_ _Go hear a pair - trust your ears_ _

you really are a Hypocritical Tosser.
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I would be a hypocrite if I had claimed there was no difference between _speakers_.

[This message was edited by AndrewThomas on WEDNESDAY 19 November 2003 at 22:27.]
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In one thread you you state that there is no difference between cables, the surfaces the equipment stands on, mains arrangements etc unless scientifically proven using DBTs, and now you are telling a person to trust their ears, exactly what all your detracters have being saying all along. Your still a hypocrit.

Yours in Music

Syd

Andrews answer

quote:
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Originally posted by syd:

In one thread you you state that there is no difference between cables, the surfaces the equipment stands on, mains arrangements etc unless scientifically proven using DBTs, and now you are telling a person to trust their ears, exactly what all your detracters have being saying all along. Your still a hypocrit.

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What you have failed to understand about DBT is that the test is such that people can only use (and therefore trust) their ears.

If the phrase "trust your ears" was taken to its logical conclusion (expecially by subjectivists who use it), they would only participate in (and purchase equipment based on) DBT..

Me

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by AndrewThomas:

quote:
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Originally posted by syd:

In one thread you you state that there is no difference between cables, the surfaces the equipment stands on, mains arrangements etc unless scientifically proven using DBTs, and now you are telling a person to trust their ears, exactly what all your detracters have being saying all along. Your still a hypocrit.

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What you have failed to understand about DBT is that the test is such that people can _only_ use (and therefore trust) their ears.

If the phrase "trust your ears" was taken to its logical conclusion (expecially by subjectivists who use it), they would only participate in (and purchase equipment based on) DBT..
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Are you saying that you actually conducted a DBT in the dealers or in your home before buying all of your equipment?

Yours in Music

Syd

Andrew again

quote:
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Originally posted by syd:

quote:
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Originally posted by AndrewThomas:
...
What you have failed to understand about DBT is that the test is such that people can _only_ use (and therefore trust) their ears.

If the phrase "trust your ears" was taken to its logical conclusion (expecially by subjectivists who use it), they would only participate in (and purchase equipment based on) DBT..
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Are you saying that you actually conducted a DBT in the dealers or in your home before buying all of your equipment?

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What I am saying is that people who use the phrase "trust your ears" and yet refuse to participate in double blind testing are the hypocrites.

[This message was edited by AndrewThomas on FRIDAY 21 November 2003 at 04:33.]

My final post on the other thread

quote:
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Originally posted by AndrewThomas:

What I am saying is that people who use the phrase "trust your ears" and yet refuse to participate in double blind testing are the hypocrites.

[This message was edited by AndrewThomas on FRIDAY 21 November 2003 at 04:33.]
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As far as I can tell nobody on this forum has actually refused point blank to take part in double blind testing. Indeed many of your detractors in an old thread became quite interested in setting one up but seemed to get bogged down in the logistics of it all. Mostly they don't think it would change their minds one way or the other. Perhaps you could organise one and invite people to come along to it.

I'd still like an answer to my question
Are you saying that you actually conducted a DBT in the dealers or in your home before buying all of your equipment?

Yours in Music

Syd

I hope I've managed to put it all in as it was on the other thread, but apologise to Andrew if I've inadvertantly fucked it up.

Yours in Music

Syd

Posted on: 21 November 2003 by Phil Barry

What's the purpose of this thread?

Phil

Posted on: 21 November 2003 by Paul Ranson

Why is this so difficult?

The only time you can be truly using your ears is in a properly conducted DBT. All other listening is contaminated by non-aural influences.

For an example the existence of 'direction' markers on cables is symptomatic of the desire to make the 'right' decision and not trust ones ears. How many people actually determine 'correct' directionality aurally?

Paul

Posted on: 21 November 2003 by JohanR

The only BT I have done was with a classical LP that was recorded digitally on one side and analouge on the other (the same performance on booth sides, obviously). Carefully avoiding looking on the label I put it on the LP12, playing a part of one side and then the same part of the other side.
There was a clear differnce and I had no problem telling wich side was digital and wich was analogue.

Then I looked on the label. I was wrong!

But, of course, in BT terms it was a "hit", a difference was detected.

To make it completely DBT I should have flipped the LP in the air, put it on again and been able to tell wich of the two sides was on now. Didn't do that, but maybe I will tonight!

JohanR

Posted on: 21 November 2003 by Paul Ranson

quote:
Me, I turned my Burndy round 'cos my ears said it sounded better that way.

I suspect you're a rare bird....

I've done it in the past with a home made cable, but I wouldn't warrant that I'd make the same decision the next time.

quote:
But isn't music rather more than just sounds or notes or am I missing the point of hi-fi?

I don't see the relevance of that to whether you should use the senses other than hearing to choose which hifi sounds more like music...

Paul

Posted on: 21 November 2003 by Nime

quote:
Originally posted by JohanR:

There was a clear difference and I had no problem telling which side was digital and which was analogue.

Then I looked on the label. I was wrong!

To make it completely DBT I should have flipped the LP in the air, put it on again and been able to tell which of the two sides was on now. Didn't do that, but maybe I will tonight!

JohanR

A brave chap for admitting it here! But if you really don't want to be allowed to spend another penny on HiFi for the rest of your married life: Get your wife/ girlfiend to do the "swapping" for you. It will take years to build up enough "cred" to be able to buy even a new set of cartridge screws!

Nime

Everyone has the right to be wrong.

Posted on: 21 November 2003 by Frank Abela

syd

I think I may have looked briefly at that other thread, and after noting the aggressive, derogatory comments I decided to move on to a more interesting, less insulting, thread. I'm guessing that thread got pulled? If so, I wholly applaud the decision to pull it and rather hope that the Naim moderators pull this one too!

Ah, no, my mistake. I see that the other thread is still there. Ah well...I live in hope.

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

Posted on: 21 November 2003 by Paul Ranson

quote:
Emotions are governed by more than what you hear so to choose hi-fi in a cold clinical manner would suggest that you aren't judging it under normal listening conditions.

IMO you should sit down with a bottle of wine and just play tunes. That's what the thing is for.

But, do cables sound different when reversed? How do we resolve that question? It's a claim that is, on the bald face of it, absurd, so the demonstration must be unarguable.

I don't know if you saw the 'Bible Codes' Horizon programme last night, but it illustrated some of the problems in a different context.

Paul

Posted on: 21 November 2003 by MichaelC

quote:
Originally posted by Tom Alves:
And I know my hi-fi sounds better than anyone elses so I'mm happy.

Tom

Actively enjoying it all

And that, surely, is what it is all about.

Mike

Posted on: 21 November 2003 by Martin Payne

quote:
Originally posted by Tom Alves:
My prefered auditioning technique is to get the stuff home, drink some wine, potter around, eat, chat and listen, i.e. behave normally. I doubt if you could DBT that experience.

Tom,

If you could hide the items being compared (or the tweak applied) I don't see why you couldn't run one config for a night (or a month), and just live with it as you normally do.

Swap over and listen the same way the next night/month.

I don't see why this would be any less valid than a two minute snatch under "stressful" conditions, and should be much more of a real-world test.

cheers, Martin

E-mail:- MartinPayne (at) Dial.Pipex.com. Put "Naim" in the title.

Posted on: 24 November 2003 by JohanR

quote:
Music works emotionally. Emotions are governed by more than what you hear so to choose hi-fi in a cold clinical manner would suggest that you aren't judging it under normal listening conditions. My prefered auditioning technique is to get the stuff home, drink some wine, potter around, eat, chat and listen, i.e. behave normally. I doubt if you could DBT that experience.

Agree a 100 percent.

BUT! There is of course allways the doubt that I hear what I hear because I knew that the new pairs of 135:s substituting my 180 SHOULD sound better.

I did the DBT test again this weekend as promised/threatened. Hearing a small part of the record, swapping it over and hearing it again, swapping back etc. etc. It IS a quite stressing experience that, as Tom says, has nothing to do with the normal way of listening to music. But after doing it six times and getting the same result (as in prefering the same side) five out of six times one can safely say that the difference between an analogue and a digital recording, transferred to vinyl, IS detectable under DBT conditions.

Anyone dare to do it with respect to the sexing of cables? Or maybe different Naim amps? In these cases I gaver one needs a friend to help out...

JohanR

Posted on: 24 November 2003 by andy c

Sheesh!
My wife and I didn't do blind testing over a recent weekend when I'd some new kit to work out the best upgrade path. (282/250mk2/XPS2).
I feel I may have not conducted the listening tests properly now having been able to clearly view all equipment throughout!

On a more serious note if I have a piece of kit/cable/stand or whatever and with no harm to anyone else I can try something like differant cables etc (should the need arise) then i will.
And if I'm considering paying out for it but it doesnt sound and better than what I already have then i won't swap!
On another note how do you demo a mains spur in your own home? (uh oh said it there then didnt i)