Match of The Day

Posted by: seagull on 05 January 2003

Gary Lineker Welcome to Match of The Day. We’ve got a real top of the table clash tonight as the Mana takes on the Fraim in a repeat of the recent classic confrontation (see Mana vs Fraim, round 1).

The Fraim narrowly won the last one on home ground, with the CD5 source but things are very different tonight. Alan, what do you make of today’s game?

Alan Hansen The last game really suited the Fraim as it was an all Naim affair, but this time it’s the turn of the big lad, the LP12. It’s a real contrast of styles, the Mana is full of attacking options while the Fraim is just pure class. The Mana was always going to be up against it in the all Naim line up with the CD5 but this time it’s the LP12, the Mana is tailor made for it, but the Fraim is a good all rounder so it should be close.

Gary L Now over to our match commentator John Motson and our new recruit Ron Atkinson

John Motson Well Gary, we’ve just had the team sheet and it a very strong line up. At the back we have the SBL’s supported by Mana soundbases. They will be linked to the midfield by the NACA5. In midfield we have the 82, flanked by the Hi-cap brothers and the real power house of the team the 180. Up front we have the LP12 with Aro and Arkiv and making its debut the Lingo2, younger brother of Lingo, reputed to be a better supplier, but we shall see.

The Fraim won the last time these two met in the CD shootout. Ron what do you think about this line up?

Ron Atkinson Well , either side could win it, or it could be a draw. It’s a good attacking line up which should suit the Mana. If they keep the tempo up, it could cause the Fraim a few problems early doors. I like the look of the mid-field, its well balanced, I’ve always admired the Hi-caps, real box to box players. Get the ball up to the big lad up front and I think we could be in for some fireworks.

John Motson And it’s the Mana to kick off, and its straight into the attack with a live Joni Mitchell song. That’s really got the crowd going, the voice and guitar are really thrown forward in the opening exchanges.

Ron Atkinson Yes John, its really edge of the seat stuff this, the Mana’s really giving it the full gun. The crowd are singing in the background and it’s a great atmosphere.

John Motson And now the Fraim takes over, Joni sounds different, slightly more laid back. The guitar sounds a bit less forced and the drums seem to kick harder. We can now pick out individuals in the crowd singing along with the band.

Big Ron Spotter’s badge there John, its definitely clearer on the Fraim.

Motty More sparse play from T-Bone Burnett, a popular one in the hi-fi demonstration world. The Mana is really throwing everything thing up front.

Ron The guitar’s giving it the little eyebrows and the singers meeting it full on at the second post, shame about the finish.

Motty Now an old favourite from Elvis Costello, just piano and vocals. The Mana has control now and it sounds to me like there playing in a large venue with the sound being amplified. Back to the Fraim and suddenly we’re in a small smoky pub with Elvis perched on a bar stool with Steve Nieve playing the piano behind him.

Ron Yes John, a real turn up for the books, its just like the picture on the back of the LP sleeve. In fact, very like the pub two shady characters took me to the other week, full of strange people and lethal beer.

Motty Now comes the crowd favourites, The Chameleons, Script of the Bridge.

Ron Definitely a crowd pleaser that one. They give it the full kitchen sink, no guns barred and all holds blazing. This will sort out the boys from the boys.

Motty The Mana takes it in its stride, the guitars are strident and the voice forward but the drums sound slightly subdued. The band sound a little steretched out. The Fraim takes over and who switched on that bass? The drums now sound full and the kick drum is pounding forcefully.

Ron The Fraim plays it a lot tighter at the back, the guitars are playing neat little triangles through the middle and the singer is clearer.

Motty The volume’s now been turned up and the SBL’s are now really beginning to sing. The Mana seems louder but more strident, the Fraim is just playing music. As we approach half time, your thoughts on the game so far Ron.

Ron I tell you what, I’ve seen some good games in my time but that just might be the best I’ve seen this afternoon.

Gary Lineker Thank you Motty and Big Ron. A good open game, Alan, your thoughts.

Alan Hansen It was good defending by both teams that kept the score low. The music tried ranged from simple vocal and guitar to all out assault, they mixed it up well to get the best out of the sistem. What surprised me though was when the volume turned up, the SBLs were sensational, they really rocked and showed depth and bass I never knew were there before….

Gary Lineker I’ve got to interrupt you there Alan, I’ve just heard some sensational news from the ground, we’ll hand you back to Motty for the update.

Motty Yes Gary, sensational news, the Mana is not coming out for the second half, more news, as and when we get it, back to the studio.

Alan Hansen I think there was always going to be a problem trying to find room for the Fraim and Mana in the same team. They are contrasting styles but are always competing for the same floor space. The pug ugly Mana probably has no room in the new set-up with the pretty boy Fraim.

Motty Well the teams are coming out for the second half and indeed there is no sign of the Mana.

Ron It’s a surprise that. I thought the Mana would come out hard and stick a few reducers on the Fraim early doors to show who was boss but that didn’t happen. If some one had told me that the Fraim would win that battle I’d say they’d been watching too many cartoons.

Motty Well it appears to be a tactical change. They’re no longer listening to Hi-fi and are now listening to music instead. This seems to suit the Fraim better than the Mana. I think the turning point was the Chameleons. The Fraim really rocked but the Mana was too spread out and harsh especially with the volume turned right up, whereas the Fraim was smooth and cultured.

Ron A real turn up for the books there John.

Motty Well, there you have it, the Fraim has won for the second time, now back to the studio.

Gary Lineker Well Alan we weren’t expecting that one.

Alan Hansen We certainly didn’t. The Fraim performed supremely well and the SBLs excelled themselves at the higher volumes.

Gary Lineker I’ve got to interrupt you there Alan as I’ve more news coming in from the ground. The club has no more funds in the transfer kitty so the Mana will be put on the transfer list! It seems there is no room for both the Mana and the Fraim in the same team so the Mana is to be sold off to cover the cost of more Fraim.

Alan Hansen Sensational!
Posted on: 05 January 2003 by Tristram
Brilliant!!

Seagull, just remember to check the Fraim after it has settled. It only requires it once. You will know when the bass begins to sound off and symbols start to become less present. A very slight tightening on all levels will bring it all back.

Great post. tw
Posted on: 05 January 2003 by Roy T
Well worth the price of the season ticket.
Posted on: 05 January 2003 by dave simpson
Nice one Seagull!--now I'm craving hotdogs and beer for the rest of the day though.

regards,

dave
Posted on: 05 January 2003 by Wolf
very entertaining and informative. I could hear the crowd, cheering and doing the wave. gee I'm glad I invested in a winner.

glenn
Posted on: 05 January 2003 by Hammerhead
The most sense Alan Hansen has ever made. I usually just want to punch his arrogant, argumentative face in!

Nice one, Seagull.

Steve
Posted on: 05 January 2003 by Andrew Randle
Ah yes, but where is Mike Parry from Talksport radio?

Andrew

Andrew Randle
Linn Binn Sinner
Posted on: 06 January 2003 by Malcolm Davey
Following the match there was a board meeting and I can confirm that any additional funds for further development of the team will have to come from transfers. Mrs M said that following the Christmas cooling off period the 'Window' was now open. Some donations from other directors (thanks Mum and Aunty) can go towards such expenditure. However, on no account was an approach to be made to the bank!!

The morning after the match an additional training session was held with all board members present. Mrs M confirmed that there was a clear difference in the performance AND then emphasised complete faith in the manager and any decision that he took. First Born professed a lack of real interest due to (a) the Training regime used and (b) she preferred to concentrate on the reserves.

I can therefore confirm the decision announced on Match of the Day. The Mana Reference has performed sterling service but does not feature in our future plans. As such, in order to allow it the opportunity for regular play it has been transfer listed. I am mindful of the Bosman ruling but as a team we need to maximinse the return on out investment in order to gain another layer of Fraim.

Thanks got to Professor Fuller for his contribution to the match..........and the assitsance he furnished Seagull in his report!!!

AGH Wolves 3 and we lost eek eek mad mad
Posted on: 06 January 2003 by Dev B
quote:
Originally posted by seagull:
_Motty_ Yes Gary, sensational news, the Mana is not coming out for the second half, more news, as and when we get it, back to the studio.

_Ron_ It’s a surprise that. I thought the Mana would come out hard and stick a few reducers on the Fraim early doors to show who was boss but that didn’t happen. If some one had told me that the Fraim would win that battle I’d say they’d been watching too many cartoons.



Great post Seagull - very informative!

ps. which did you find had the better speed - Fraim or Mana?
Posted on: 06 January 2003 by Rockingdoc
thanks for making the effort. Actually made me smile at work.

malcolm
Posted on: 06 January 2003 by Malcolm Davey
The Mana was faster BUT it seemed to want to get on with things too quickly. It left me with the impression that 'space ' between notes did not exist. The Fraim allowed notes to develop and decay, Mana appeared too leading edge - there I've told you it's a note now here's another one, and another.

The Fraim allowed an identification, individuality a feeling of chord structure.

Sorry if that sounds a pile of **** but thats what I thought. Seagull will have his own take. The result was not waht I expected......
red face
Posted on: 06 January 2003 by seagull
I was there as an independent observer, its Malcolm's kit. If I had any preconceptions at all it would have been to expect the Mana to outperform the Fraim. I've always believed the Linn stance about the lightweight support being best for an LP12. (FWIW Mine was on a Sound Org table, is currently on top of my QS stand but will probably return to the Sound Org when space permits).

I was surprised by the results we got. I also don't think the differences were as marked as they were when we tried the CD5 on the Mana and Fraim (that was jaw dropping - I didn't previously think that a stand would make THAT much difference to a CD player.)

I preferred listening to the music when it was played on the LP12 sitting on the Fraim. As Malcolm said the Mana throws it all up front at you in a rush. Mrs M described the Mana's presentation as 'Chirpy'.

It was the Elvis song ("Shot With His Own Gun" from Trust) which clinched it for me. It is just piano and voice, on the Fraim it sounded like Elvis was there in a small intimate club, on the Mana it all felt like we were in a big hall with the instruments and voice being amplified.

At the other extreme was The Chameleons (did I ever say I like The Chameleons?) who give it some real welly. It was a surprise that they also sounded better when played on the Fraim (to my ears anyway) as I would have thought that their sonic attack would be more suited to the presentation of the Mana.

The biggest surprise for me was the SBLs. On previous visits we kept the volume to sociable levels, I felt the speakers gave a very detailled but polite. On this occasion, it was the afternoon and the neghbours were away so Malcolm let rip. At high volume, the SBLs really do rock (We could understand what the TW Riders listen for when they visit others and turn up the volume). With the LP12 on the Mana the sound became very wearing quite quickly, the Fraim was much more relaxed (loud, but relaxed, if that makes sense)

Both are good stands and neither is better but they present the music differently so it really is down to personal preference. That is not sitting on the fence - from what I heard that afternoon my money would go towards a Fraim (if the budget ever allowed).
Posted on: 06 January 2003 by Dave J
quote:
We could understand what the TW Riders listen for when they visit others and turn up the volume).


Actually, I think it's because we're all bloody deaf and we like to piss off your neighbours.

Great thread, I'd concur with the results, by the way.

Dave
Posted on: 06 January 2003 by graphoman
I can’t help but all that jazz (???) keep frightening me. I’ve read over your report and I feel absolutely no empathy for the audience. It might be interesting enough for the Everyday Music afficionados but has no relevance for serious music listeners.

Maybe I’m that angry because there was a time when I was an anticipant of this kind of Hi-Fi-ish mambo-jumbo and nothing is as annoying like standing face-to-face to your yesterday ego.

Main reason of my healing is the fact that I then started to read British (instead of German) Hi-Fi Press, some 20 years ago and went on from Hi-Fi to audio then from audio to music listening. It’s frightening, I repeat, to see that early kind of hi-fying - after all - on a British forum.

graphoman
Posted on: 07 January 2003 by Simon Matthews
Graphoman

Confused. What's the problem?
Posted on: 07 January 2003 by seagull
Maybe Ronglish actually makes some sort of sense in Hungary.
Posted on: 10 January 2003 by Simon Matthews
Is Ronglish a recognised form of vocabulary?

Ahh jumpers for goalpost's , early bath, 4-4-2, a game of two halves isn't it. Hmm.
Posted on: 10 January 2003 by Malcolm Davey
Mana said 'Initially I was sick as a parrot that I would no longer feature in the plans of the Quizmaster but am over the moon at the opportunity of a transfer and the chance to rejuvinate another team'
Posted on: 13 January 2003 by seagull
I'm afraid I couldn't tell you, its not my kit and I wouldn't know a soundstage from my elbow (I guess the sound stage has four pointy bits).

It wasn't a serious home demo of Mana vs Fraim (hence the tone of the report). The main aim was for Malcolm to decide whether he could live with his LP12 on the Fraim which would allow him to reduce his rack count by 1.

I was there as an insanity check. I guess if I were looking for myself then I would want to hear two 'equivalent' stands (not sure how much Mana would be considered equivalent to a Fraim, or indeed how you measure it other than by cost.)

As I said they are both good stands but seem to do different things to the presentation of the music. From that afternoon, with that sistem I preferred the Fraim.
Posted on: 14 January 2003 by seagull
Stallion,

My experience of Mana is limited to what I have heard at Malcolm's house. What we did then was to swap the LP12 between the Mana and the top of the Fraim. This was the only change made to the sistem. The Mana stand had been set up carefully by Malcolm and was the stand that his LP12 sat on until he bought the Fraim. I agree that there are too many variables to say that what worked with that sistem in that room would work for me at home. I'm a great believer in horses for courses (if you'll excuse the metaphor).

Malcolm was very happy with what he heard which, as you rightly said, is the most important thing after all. Naim will be happy because he will probably buy another shelf for his Fraim. Someone else will be happy because they will be able to buy some Mana second hand.

I must admit that the thing that surprised me more than anything was that the difference between the stands was more marked with my CD5 which we tried on both on our previous music evening. I had been previously slightly sceptical about the effect of stands on CD players (more so with electronics, I still am as I haven't heard it for myself).

However, both Malcolm and myself are music enthusiasts first so we actually spent most of the time listening to music rather than the hi-fi (more than once the one song we wanted to try ran into the next then the next... the second half actually ran into extra time). We are from slightly different musical eras although there is some overlapping in our collections so it is good fun introducing each other to 'new' music.

Personally, I am not in the market for new stands as my spending priorities lie elsewhere at the moment...

More music
(almost) dedicated listening room with dedicated mains spur
Service (and new arm) for my LP12
Hi-cap for my CD5 (our next experiment, hopefully)
72 and Hi-cap to replace my aging but sprightly 42

Finally, you said "...only that they audition very carefully and not end up buying into biased ideology...", you were referring to stands but that could equally apply to the Naim kit we all own and love.
Posted on: 14 January 2003 by Malcolm Davey
Stallion

Seagull, you (and everyone else who's ever said it) are right it's about enjoying the music. Seagull has introduced me to bands I had never heard of... the new Chameleons CD arrived yesterday and the track Second Skin was played 9 times on my way into work - I like that track. Smile We've also found bands in common ... Caravan, Camel, Fashion.....

Yes we swapped kit around, next it will be a hicap on Seagulls CD5 and its fun to try these things BUT once it sounds right we just keep playing music!! It's been good to have another opinion (MrsM and First Born are not that interested in my type of music but First Born gets carted off to a number of concerts and is very tolerant)
OK we also enjoy a beer or two ....
Posted on: 14 January 2003 by matthewr
Marco said "If you like, as a kind of quiz question, do you (or anyone else for that matter) know the real reason why I chose "Stallion" as my user name?"

I believe that Rachel Evans conluded it was either repressed homosexuality or else you chose your name as a mark of your respect for the well known Italian-American actor Slyvester Stallone.

She is wrong of course and the real reason is because your internet persona is meant to honour your noble Italian heritage and because you felt we wouldn't be able to spell or pronounce your real name properly.

BTW Just out of interest, how do your friends react when you tell them you are known as "Stallion" on an internet chat room? Wink

Matthew
Posted on: 14 January 2003 by seagull
The beer was real Fullers ESB served from a sedimented minipin. Unfortunately, the temperature was on the low side so the yeast was perhaps below par and the beer was served without a discernable head. This may have affected the performance.

The CD match was played in the presence of RCH East Street Cream, freshly poured into a carrykeg and in peak condition from the Local Pub.

At no time was lager involved.
Posted on: 14 January 2003 by seagull
Maybe the Mana needs the finest wines Italy can provide... and, of course, Italian food cooked only from fresh ingredients and using only extra virgin olive oil (though where you find any virgins with all those randy Italians around I don't know).

Hutter evidently needs Malt whisky.

Perhaps Fraims work best with real ale. Well they are made in Salisbury, which is also home to the Hop Back brewery who brew Summer Lightning!
Posted on: 14 January 2003 by Malcolm Davey
Technical Area it is sad to report that I was shopped to the Governing Body for leaving the Technical Area. Also when substitustions were made the 4th official was not informed.

I was also censored by the board and reminded that any new signings could only be self financing.

The hoped for cup run has not materialised ..... it is true that the Mana had been jostled but judicious use of the Mana 'Spirit' Level ensured it was in peak form for this match.

The Belgian lager was kept well away from this encounter.....
Posted on: 14 January 2003 by Malcolm Davey
Seagull has provided the definitive explanation as to why the Fraim sounds better!!