Runaway Train !!!

Posted by: Don Atkinson on 09 March 2007

Runaway Train !!!

Its night. A group of railway workers have just loaded their trolley with 2 tonnes of steel when they accidently release the brake and the trolley starts rolling silently along the track which slopes downhill for two miles. The near-by signaller observes this all happen.

A mile and a half away is a right-hand fork (diverging junction), with the points set to the right. Beyond the junction, on the right hand track is a gang of 5 railway workers digging ballast in the four-foot (ie standing between the running rails). This is the route the runaway trolley will take. The trolley is silent and it will kill all five when it mows them down.

Beyond the junction, on the left-hand track is a single railway worker in the four-foot. This is the route the runaway trolley will take if the signaller throws the switch to re-set the points to straight ahead. His fate will be the same.

What should the signaller do? Should he throw the switch to save the five. Or should he leave fate alone?

PS the signaller and others simply can't contact either set of workers.

Cheers

Don
Posted on: 12 March 2007 by Deane F
quote:
Originally posted by JoeH:
quote:
Originally posted by acad tsunami:
'Thou shalt not kill' has become 'thou shalt not murder' in recent times because it is expedient for 'Christian' Presidents and Prime Ministers to give orders to Christian troops to kill.


Yebbut the same God who said 'Thou shalt not kill' also kept telling the Israelites to go out and smite people, so the commandment was ambiguous even then


You need the Rabbinic commentary to get the whole story on Jewish law.
Posted on: 12 March 2007 by acad tsunami
quote:
Originally posted by JoeH:
quote:
Originally posted by acad tsunami:
'Thou shalt not kill' has become 'thou shalt not murder' in recent times because it is expedient for 'Christian' Presidents and Prime Ministers to give orders to Christian troops to kill.


Yebbut the same God who said 'Thou shalt not kill' also kept telling the Israelites to go out and smite people, so the commandment was ambiguous even then


Yes, as long as they were not Jews.

I have a book called Jewish History, Jewish Religion by Israel Shakak (a Jew). To tell the truth I have not read it but I have skipped through it and my eyes pop out with disbelief on every page that I have glanced at. It would appear that It is one rule for them and one rule for gentiles but the accuracy of book is hotly contested.

Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of Three Thousand Years
Posted on: 12 March 2007 by ewemon
The warning explosives or whatever they use on the tracks would let the workers know. They are supposed to place them a set distance either side of them working.

In any case 2 tons of steel would gather up so much speed that it may not be able to take the bend. It would probaly be derailed.
Posted on: 12 March 2007 by Deane F
quote:
Originally posted by acad tsunami:
It would appear that It is one rule for them and one rule for gentiles


There are, actually, 613 laws for Jews and 7 for Gentiles. (These seven laws are known as the Noachic Covenant (as in Noah).
Posted on: 13 March 2007 by Don Atkinson
quote:
The warning explosives or whatever they use on the tracks would let the workers know. They are supposed to place them a set distance either side of them working.

In any case 2 tons of steel would gather up so much speed that it may not be able to take the bend. It would probaly be derailed.


Detonator protection is put down to alert a train driver to apply the brakes.

In connection with planned engineering works, detonator protection would be laid out at each end of the Possession limits adjacent to the Possession Limit Boards (Red octagon with red light). The Possession could be several miles long. Within the Possession, there might well be several Worksites. Each worksite would be marked with a yellow board at each end of the Worksite, displaying yellow lights to one side and red lights to the other side. There will not be any detonators at the Worksite marker boards.

In the scenario depicted in this post, and so far as I know at Tebay, the various groups of workmen were operating within the same Possession, but probably in different worksites – although they might well have all been in one, single, Worksite.

Either way, the trolley would not have encountered detonators.

Most switches and crossings (points) are good for 15 mph, but some are good at speeds from 25 mph up to 100 mph. The speed of the trolley is limited by the slope and friction.

Cheers

Don
Posted on: 13 March 2007 by jpk73
To decide in milliseconds to kill one instead of five by an intervention has 2 additional difficulties for me:

- People who prefer to intervene in the above case tend to "play god"

- people who can find the "right" decicion in milliseconds appear to me rather heartless

I for one did not think in the first place about killing one or 5: I tried to find "better" solutions. In the first milliseconds I had the idea of derailing the trolly, but how? Maybe by choosing the trolly to go the forks curved way and hope that this idea succeeds? Or by putting the fork between the 2 positions? OK, you said this is not possible. But these were just my thoughts!

I dont know what I would have done if I was in the real situation - thats totally another thing.

But I dont like the idea that relatives of the real accidents could read our thread...!
Posted on: 13 March 2007 by Don Atkinson
quote:
But I dont like the idea that relatives of the real accidents could read our thread...!

Jun

I posted this thread in the knowledge of Tebay, but felt this hypothetical situation was far enough removed to avoid upset. If I had chosen the original runaway train instead, I have no doubt that Beano (or someone else) would have found an example of a real train crash to cite....in fact, we had a real train crash about 3 weeks ago, pretty close to the trolley incident that happened a couple of years ago.

In the Tebay trolley incident, there were no forks in the railway to divert the trolley and there was no signaller on duty to operate any switches. There was no possibility of anybody "playing God" able to chose between watching 5 men die or deciding to re-direct the trolley to another, single workman, who would die.

The question wasn't "What would you do?" it was more "If the signaller threw the switch, was that action right or wrong" or "if the signaller didn't throw the switch, was that action right or wrong"

Nevertheless, you have a perfect right to state your views, and I respect you for that.

Cheers

Don