your top three orchestras

I'm not sure I have a top three, and I don't think I know a single orchestra that is always an the money.

I like the Chicago very much too, though (but their recent Mahler 6 under Haitink was somewhere beyond dull, a shame as the preceding 3rd was excellent). Unfortunately, I've yet to see them live. The Cleveland Orchestra did come to Edinburgh about 4 years ago and remain one of the most impressive ensembles I've ever seen and heard.

I've just returned from a concert given by the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra, who I've heard several times now, and fine extremely special. The Berliners also impress (but I have plenty or Karajan discs that do absolutely nothing for me).

Of the London orchestras, I must admit I have always found the LPO to be the least impressive of the big three, preferring both the LSO and the Philharmonia (which I think is the superior these days).

In Scotland I have a great deal of affection for the BBC Scottish, who I regard as the best of the BBC Orchestras and who, under Runnicles, can rival just about anyone. The SCO are also very good (but they are pretty dependent on the conductor - however, I think that's true of any orchestra).


regards, Tam

All major orchestras are on in studio recordings - it's only in live recordings where failings seem most evident, and then it's often interpretation more than playing.

As to which three always seem to do the trick for me, well the Berlin Philharmonic, Vienna Philharmonic, and Czech Philharmonic seem to always deliver the goods, but I can write the same about the San Francisco Symphony and Los Angeles Philharmonic and Staatskapelle Dresden and Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra and a host of others.


--

Restricting myself to orchestras that I have heard in concert, I would say, firstly the LPO, second the Bornemouth Symphony Orchestra, and of the HIP bands the Orchestra of the Age of the Enlightenment.

If I take in recordings and broadcasts I would add the VPO, and Czech Phil.

Other favourites include the Philharmonia [whom I have heard on several occasions], the BPO [recordings and radio], the LSO [heard], and the Oslo Phil [recordings only].

There are only three orchetras I would bet on not being belted financially by the current economic crisis: The BPO, the VPO, and the Czech Phil.

George

quote:

Originally posted by Tam:
Of the London orchestras, I must admit I have always found the LPO to be the least impressive of the big three, preferring both the LSO and the Philharmonia (which I think is the superior these days).

regards, Tam

i didn't know the lso and lpo were two different orchestras.

this is a good example of a flawless performance. the classical is charming as ever, but it's the fifth that really shines.

the fifth i believe is built on a rhythmic scaffolding, that is passed like a ball from one section of the orchestra to another. melodies are imprinted on that rhythm and endowed with color in the voicing. but its the rhythm that moves things along. a rhythmic torrent splashed with color, and home to melody.

it is possible that chicago fills these requisites to a degree unattainable by other orchestras.

when has a lower brass section played with this kind of rhythmic accuracy? but it's unfair to single out any section. everybody is perfect.

i'd like to hear of anyone who can even match it.

Though lacking the element of holding something in reserve for the clinching climax, at least in much of the Russian repertoire, the rhythmic impetus of the Leningrad Phil under Mravinski does take some eclipsing!

Even nowadays the Leningrad Phil, obviously now styled the Saint Petersberg, is one amazing virtuoso ensemble.

It seems to me that the Russian Orchestras do have the ability to build up rhythmic impetus in a monumental way that is far more inherent in their style than almost any Western orchestra does as a starting point.

In many ways the great orchestras of the USA have this capacity more than the Western European orchestras for all that. The style between the US orchestras is radically different between them, so that the Boston used to be a very French sounding ensemble, whereas the NY Phil frequently was rather Germanic.

In the UK, there is a particular variant of the French sytle, which is not very Germanic, and yet is chameleon-like in its tendency to manage music from ever main cultural stream with aplomb, though rarely with the precise viruosity of US orchestras.

It is fascinating to compare the live Toscanini Brahms concerts with the Philharmonia [at the RFH in 1952, I think] with his NBC counterparts. Clearly the NBC is more secure and technically accurate, but there is something very fine about the Philharmonia performances, which for me tipped the balance in their favour, though Toscanini's take on Brahms proved too volatile for me after a while, and I gave the recordings away. Toscanini privately refered to the Philharmonia as a pure English maiden awaiting musical consumation! His view was that he was making this musical consumation of the then very young orchestra possible!

Just musings. Hope that is okay ...

ATB from George

one of my trumpet teachers played in the nbc under toscanini. ray crisera. to this day, he is the finest musician i have ever heard in person.

those toscanini brahms are a bit overworked, but they are so well played i forgive it.

still, the abbado/berlin set is my current favorite.

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:


this is a good example of a flawless performance. the classical is charming as ever, but it's the fifth that really shines.

the fifth i believe is built on a rhythmic scaffolding, that is passed like a ball from one section of the orchestra to another. melodies are imprinted on that rhythm and endowed with color in the voicing. but its the rhythm that moves things along. a rhythmic torrent splashed with color, and home to melody.

it is possible that chicago fills these requisites to a degree unattainable by other orchestras.

when has a lower brass section played with this kind of rhythmic accuracy? but it's unfair to single out any section. everybody is perfect.

i'd like to hear of anyone who can even match it.

:-)

Gramophone just picked, in order, the Concertgebouw, Berlin, and Vienna as the top three. It all seems pretty silly to me, like trying to pick the best conductors, performers or even composers.

quote:

Originally posted by Oldnslow:
Gramophone just picked, in order, the Concertgebouw, Berlin, and Vienna as the top three. It all seems pretty silly to me, like trying to pick the best conductors, performers or even composers.

it's not silly at all. there are radical differences in the sound of different orchestras, and a wide variance in the style and degree of technical competence.

it can make one orchestra better suited to a wide range of compositions than another.

in fact, one of the great joys of this diversity is the opportunity to hear a familiar work recast in a different light, even if the conductor is the same.

i guess the same holds true for both conductors and performers. yes, composers too.

as long as no one is declared an absloute "winner" it is both enlightening and entertaining.

it is simply enjoying the diversity.

as in every human endeavor, some are always better than others.

here's the gramophone list of the top twenty orchestras :

1. Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra, Amsterdam
2. Berlin Philharmonic
3. Vienna Philharmonic
4. London Symphony Orchestra
5. Chicago Symphony Orchestra
6. Bavarian Radio Symphony
7. Cleveland Orchestra
8. Los Angeles Philharmonic
9. Budapest Festival Orchestra
10. Dresden Staatskapelle
11. Boston Symphony Orchestra
12. New York Philharmonic
13. San Francisco Symphony
14. Mariinsky Theatre Orchestra
15. Russian National Orchestra
16. Leningrad Philharmonic
17. Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra
18. Metropolitan Opera Orchestra
19. Saito Kinen Symphony Orchestra
20. Czech Philharmonic

i believe chicago to be in the top three, as i stated earlier, but i haven't heard them in over a year, so things may have changed. Chicago is, however, the top american orchestra.

i also think the NY Phil got a lower rating than they deserve, thou cleveland and los angeles got fair treatment.

btw, can anyone recommend a NEW 2008 recording by the Concertgebouw Orchestra? i'd like to hear gramophone's top pick in its current form.

Mike,

I really like the CSO musically they are excellent. Unfortunately my wife and I gave up our subscriptions several years ago. They have been criticized for too much "experimental" music over the past years. While I certainly want to expand my musical horizons,as I am not a musician, nor are most of the concertgoers, we cannot enjoy, appreciate, or understand the more modern type of classical music which as you are aware is without melody whatsoever and for me at least unlistenable. When I see Boulez' name as conductor I run for the hills as he is a big proponent of this sort of thing and Barenboim was a big proponent as well. I even know a few musicians who play orchestral music and they hate the stuff as well. Not listening to the consumer has cost them alot of subscriptions and we now look elsewhere for our classical music for the most part. It's a shame because as I said musically they are outstanding.

quote:

Originally posted by gary1 (US):
... the more modern type of classical music ....

Music is organized sound.
The present day composer refuses to die!

- Edgard Victor Achille Charles Varèse (22 December 1883 – 6 November 1965)

Can you have modern classics? If you can then Varèse is a composer who is nothing if not captivating and interesting, but doesn't major on melody.

quote:

Originally posted by gary1 (US):
Mike,

I really like the CSO musically they are excellent. Unfortunately my wife and I gave up our subscriptions several years ago. They have been criticized for too much "experimental" music over the past years. While I certainly want to expand my musical horizons,as I am not a musician, nor are most of the concertgoers, we cannot enjoy, appreciate, or understand the more modern type of classical music which as you are aware is without melody whatsoever and for me at least unlistenable. When I see Boulez' name as conductor I run for the hills as he is a big proponent of this sort of thing and Barenboim was a big proponent as well. I even know a few musicians who play orchestral music and they hate the stuff as well. Not listening to the consumer has cost them alot of subscriptions and we now look elsewhere for our classical music for the most part. It's a shame because as I said musically they are outstanding.

the CSO is well represented with CDs.

boulez/CSO Bartok Concerto for Orchestra on DGG,
is available at arkivmusic.com.

check out his debussy with the CSO as well.

he's a great conductor.

try these two, the bartok and a debussy.

oh, about subscription concerts. my local orchestra programmed all 9 beethoven symphonies this season - that was the backbone of the season. i haven't gone to a beethoven concert yet, but i will in january. it's not that exciting. if it was the CSO, it would be exciting.

you should write them a letter. everyone that feels the way you do should. it might change the programming.

nothing elaborate. just a few sentences.

wouldn't do any good here, but your circumstances are different :-)

Ah well, I like having a mix of old and new. I go to the talks before the piece, some are great and others not, but you get a sense of history and why it has come about.

I take art in all it's forms and periods. I can't shut off one period, except the baroque, in painting sculpture and music. Yet it's a basis for everything that has come after so I don't NOT look at it. They really had lovely command of the ornate.

You have to understand that the 20th C had huge forces of chaos and war. Artists of all types were rebelling against tight confining ideas. And after the war artists couldn't paint "pretty" pictures after years of death and the horrors of destruction. So painters in New York went abstract and composers like Verese Stockhousen Schoenberg went a different path. It's coming around now, composers aren't all atonal, and serialism is being abandoned for tonal works.

I'm so lucky to have been in LA when Salonen has conducted and other greats come here. Wonderful mixture of stuff. Only one concert was decidedly dull, it was all Mozart. 4 pieces, lovely, colorful but it needed to be broken up.

Another was Uchida at Ojai, she is wonderful but she did an all Schubert program, nothing contrasted with it and the Ojai Festival is about modern music with a few beautiful older pieces to show origins. Everyone was decidedly quiet after that concert, and people making excuses for it. Quite funny.

Yeah Wolf2 I understand, but I'm not willing to shell out what the cost of a concert is to hear that stuff. It's way too expensive. When these pieces are played either the place is half empty or people get fed up and leave after the performance intermission.

In fact last year they contacted us mid-season about a special 1/2 price deal for 4 concerts. My wife asked what was playing and stated emphatically that we did not want any 20C stuff. They said there was none. Needless to say second concert had 20C music. Afterwards I called them up and demanded my money back which they refunded and they've been calling ever since with "attempts to make it up to us." Other than some tickets I've was given from a business associate we haven't been back.

Talk about stupidity!

PS: Boulez is a great conductor, my issue with him is that when he is conducting there is usually atonal music on the schedule, if not someone else's then it is his own, usually bits from "Notations." Can't stand the stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by gary1 (US):
PS: Boulez is a great conductor, my issue with him is that when he is conducting there is usually atonal music on the schedule, if not someone else's then it is his own, usually bits from "Notations." Can't stand the stuff.

Boulez has recorded many tonal pieces of 20th century music. his comprehension of scores is astounding, and orchestras tend to play well for him.

so why not ignore the music that gives you an allergic reaction, but still listen to the music you might enjoy.

here are three i think you might enjoy, all with Boulez :

Debussy: La Mer / Nocturnes / Jeux / Rhapsodie pour clarinette et orchestre - The Cleveland Orchestra / Pierre Boulez

Bartok Concerto for Orchestra Boulez/Chicago

Ravel Daphnis et Chloe / La Valse Boulez/Berlin

and these are three of the world's great orchestras, all i think with an affinity for boulez.

on the issue of subscription concerts, i have come to the following conclusion :

in order to have a say in what gets performed, a person's taste must never coincide with my own. sometimes it does, but that is considered a failure, and a great deal of mental energy is expended to insure it doesn't happen too often.
that's where naim comes in - complete control over the programming.

i think you would find yourself enjoying these :-)

Gary you should probably stick to your CD collection to keep you happy.

Mike thanks for the info-will certainly check them out.

Wolf2 disagree, I'm very open-minded and do attend alot of classical perfomances. Maybe my comments were a bit off thread for the topic, but we are all aware that support and subscriptions for classical music has been on the decline. While the CSO is considered one of the great even they are having problems and felt that it was relevant topoint out just one reason why they are having a more difficult time. Customer service confirmed my suspicions and admitted that many people dropped their sunscriptions over the last few years due to this issue alone.

quote:

Originally posted by gary1 (US):
Customer service confirmed my suspicions and admitted that many people dropped their sunscriptions over the last few years due to this issue alone.

let us know if they do anything.

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:

quote:

Originally posted by gary1 (US):
Customer service confirmed my suspicions and admitted that many people dropped their sunscriptions over the last few years due to this issue alone.

let us know if they do anything.

Mike, they tried to offer us some special deals when this happened and while I appreciate that, however, by then we were both fed up at what had occurred and they lost us for the second time.

quote:

Originally posted by gary1 (US):

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:

quote:

Originally posted by gary1 (US):
Customer service confirmed my suspicions and admitted that many people dropped their sunscriptions over the last few years due to this issue alone.

let us know if they do anything.

Mike, they tried to offer us some special deals when this happened and while I appreciate that, however, by then we were both fed up at what had occurred and they lost us for the second time.

gary1, maybe i'm misreading you, but you sound ANGRY. and more than a little frustrated.
try to cool down enough that you can forgive the CSO if they change their ways.

1. Czech PO because of their glorious wind section, and especially under Talich, Ancerl, Sejna ++

2. Staatskapelle Dresden with their golden sound and fantastic brass section.

3. Wiener Philharmoniker.

I generally like German orchestras very much like BRSO, NDRSO, Berliner Staatskapelle and so on. They often have more ooomph in the bootom end that I really love. Leningrad PO under Mravinsky was also super-exciting, and of the British orchestras I have the softest spot for the Philharmonia; e.g. under Klemperer and Sinopoli.

All orchestras are bollocks with the wrong conductor. Give me the BBC Scottish with Runnicles any day than the BPO with someone like Christoph Eschenbach.

Of course the players of the BPO are far better musicians than those of the BBC band and with a top conductor are nigh peerless, save the VPO on a good day(IMO).

Chicago would be up there if someone could tame that bloody overloud brass section

Sister Eureka!

I've been thinking about the Gramophone rankings, and listening to Concertgebouw, Berlin and Chicago
- i understand the ranking.

Chicago has a marvelous sense of precision in the meter, and you are constantly aware of it.

Berlin has a beauty of articulation that draws attention to itself.

Concertgebouw has a compelling sense of rightness, that draws you away from thoughts of meter or articulation, and firmly places your attention on the composition. Close study of meter and articulation reveals beautiful playing; this is what effortless means.

here's the three recordings that formed my "fresh" impressions of the musical ability of concertgebouw, berlin and chicago :

mahler 1st berstein/concertgebouw
prokofiev 5th levine/chicago
hindemith mathis der maler abbado/berlin

all three are magnificent recordings that i enjoy tremendously, but the mahler 1st is the "thinnest" in terms of the wealth of music in the score.

and i don't want to play the game of comparing recordings of the same work to form an impression. sometimes you buy a recording and they just get it right. no itch left to scratch :-)

but at least i can see how the gramophone reached their conclusions - to some degree.