Beethoven 1-9 LSO Bernard Haitink
Posted by: Seanbeer on 10 May 2007
Who have bought the box set?
I have today, its amazingly good muscially and was recorded to perfection !
Plays super on my Cd5i and Nait5i
I have today, its amazingly good muscially and was recorded to perfection !
Plays super on my Cd5i and Nait5i
Posted on: 10 May 2007 by Tam
I have it and have so far listened to just the first two discs. I'll post my full thoughts in due course, but I've found it something of a mixed bag.
The first disc, contains a reasonable (though not particularly remarkable) reading of the Erioca - certainly nothing like Furtwangler's 1944 reading of Eugen Jochum's with the LSO. The recording is, also, frankly, poor (with the timpani sounding like they're in another room). No LSO live set will ever justify being called recorded to perfection (such is the acoustic of the Barbican) but this one is below par (though not quite so bad as the awful Shostakovich 5 a little while back). Often lapses in sonic quality are forgivable in this series as the musical merits are such (most of the Sibelius and the Jansons Mahler 6, for example), but not, in my view, in this case.
The second disc contains the interesting pairing of the 4th (long a favourite) and 8th and is very special indeed. Wonderful performances and much better recorded.
regards, Tam
The first disc, contains a reasonable (though not particularly remarkable) reading of the Erioca - certainly nothing like Furtwangler's 1944 reading of Eugen Jochum's with the LSO. The recording is, also, frankly, poor (with the timpani sounding like they're in another room). No LSO live set will ever justify being called recorded to perfection (such is the acoustic of the Barbican) but this one is below par (though not quite so bad as the awful Shostakovich 5 a little while back). Often lapses in sonic quality are forgivable in this series as the musical merits are such (most of the Sibelius and the Jansons Mahler 6, for example), but not, in my view, in this case.
The second disc contains the interesting pairing of the 4th (long a favourite) and 8th and is very special indeed. Wonderful performances and much better recorded.
regards, Tam
Posted on: 10 May 2007 by Earwicker
Yeah, I haven't heard them all but it's not a great set. There's stiff competition even in the budget arena, and the Beethoven and Brahms LSO/Haitink just doesn't cut the mustard. Interesting to listen, but for me Haitink's half-baked period-sound modern-instruments type approach just makes the whole thing neither one thing nor the other. Best leave such practices to maestro Harnoncourt, who's better able to make it stick. It's alright I suppose, but I don;t feel inclined to listen to any of it again.
EW
EW
Posted on: 10 May 2007 by Tam
I don't know about Harnoncourt (I'm not overly impressed by his cycle).
In the disc of 4&8 Haitink does make the LSO feel a much small ensemble than it is (and the result it convincing). I feel where the 3rd falls down is that he wants to have a foot in both camps.
You mention the Haitink Brahms, which I also found largely disappointing (though the second is pretty good). However, I'm not convinced the issues there are the same.
A further note, at £30-40, I don't think it really counts as a budget price set (given plenty, for example the superb Mackerras, can be had for under £10).
regards, Tam
In the disc of 4&8 Haitink does make the LSO feel a much small ensemble than it is (and the result it convincing). I feel where the 3rd falls down is that he wants to have a foot in both camps.
You mention the Haitink Brahms, which I also found largely disappointing (though the second is pretty good). However, I'm not convinced the issues there are the same.
A further note, at £30-40, I don't think it really counts as a budget price set (given plenty, for example the superb Mackerras, can be had for under £10).
regards, Tam
Posted on: 11 May 2007 by Seanbeer
guys, I will take my words back.
But I really find this morden recording set sound very 'different' to those I have heard before, not many , but those are all from the 60s or 80s era.
But I really find this morden recording set sound very 'different' to those I have heard before, not many , but those are all from the 60s or 80s era.
Posted on: 11 May 2007 by Tam
Sean, no reason why you should take your words back per se (except perhaps about the recording quality). If you like these performances, then what we think doesn't matter all that much.
However, if you haven't heard Mackerras, I'd urge you to seek it out, not least as it's extremely cheap.
regards, Tam
However, if you haven't heard Mackerras, I'd urge you to seek it out, not least as it's extremely cheap.
regards, Tam
Posted on: 11 May 2007 by u5227470736789439
Dear Sean,
I have a temendous opinion of Haitink as one of the great conductors alive today, to rank with Marris Janssons, and Claudio Abbado.
But he is pronbably the most unflambouyant of the great musicians in fornt of the public. His aims are like those of Adrian Boult - a clear sighted presentation of the score almost without seeming intervention fron the central musical mind at work in the recreation.
I an especially pleased to find you enjoying those readings of Beethoven symphonies.
Now may I send you to investigate not a whole cycle, but certain very special performances of individual symphonies - not least because I am not sure any individual conductor has done them all better than another in another symphony!
Symphony No One:
-Klemperer, Philharmonia, 1958 [EMI]
-Bruno Walter, Columbia symphony Orch, 1960 [Sony/CBS]
-Pierre Montueux, VPO, 1958. [Decca/RCA]
Symphony No Two:
-Klemperer, Philharmonia, 1958 [EMI]
-Bruno Walter, CSO, 1960 [Sony/CBS]
Eroica Symphony [No Three]
-Klemperer, Philharmonis, 1954 [EMI Mono]
-Erich Kleiber, VPO, 1954 [Decca Mono]
-Klemperer, Philharmonia, 1963 [EMI Stereo], which is an alternate and more magesterial view than the Mono set.
-Furtwangler, VPO, 1944 Tahra (French label) from Reichsrundfunk tape], which I persoanlly cannot take any longer given the fact of the performance in Nazi Austria, by a certain, at that time, Nazi collaborator. It is a phenomenal performance almost as fine as Klemperer's 1954 set.
Fourth Symphony:
-Klemperer, Philharmonia, 1958 [EMI]
-Bruno Walter, CSO [Sony/CBS]
Fifth Symphony:
-Klemperer, Philharmonia, 1954 [EMI Mono]
-Erich Kleiber Concertbebeouw Orch, 1954 [Decca Mono]
-Furtangler, BPO, May 1954 live, [Tahra], by now Furtwangler's position viz-a-viz the Nazi's was clear following some serious self examination. This rivals another great live recording, I know from Klepereer.
-Klermperer. VPO, 1968 live. [DG (nla) VPO 150 Anno celebration, rereleased on Testamrent]
Pastoral symphony:
-Bruna waler, CSO, 1960 [CBS/Sony]
-Karl Boehm, VPO, 1973, [DG]
-Erich Kleiber, Concertgebeouw, 1954 {Decca Mono]
-Klemperer, Philharmonia, 1958 [EMI]. This has one oddity in the tempo of the Peasnant's Dance, which is distinctly not not a hurried urban version. The rest of the symphony has all the heart's ease of the urban Beethoven [and Klemperer] enjoying the relaxation of the real country-side.
Seventh Symphony:
Furtwangler, VPO, Salzburg live in 1954, [Orfeo from Ausrian radio tape- Mono]
-Klemperer, Philharmonia, 19545 [EMI pioneering modern Stereo!]
Eighth Symphony:
-Monteux, VPO, 1958 [Decca]
-Klemperer, Philharmonia, 1958 [EMI]
-Bruno Walter, CSO, 1960, [Sony/CBS]
-Furtwangler, VPO, May 1954 live [Tahra from radio tape from Berlin]
Choral Symphony:
-Klepmperer, Philharmonia, in order of preference: Live 1961 on Testament [Mono], live 1957 on Testament [Stereo], and stereo studio 1957 on EMI.
-Furtwqngler, Philharmonia, live at Lucerne in 1954. Tahra [Mono].
I know that is a long list centering on the great Germanic tradition of performence, but none of these recording reveal a less than great performance, and honestly there is no one alive today to match Walter, Klemperer, at their greatest in Beethoven. Perhap I might suggest you start with one reocrding from the above list to see if you agree with my thesis that sadly we are currently in a serious desert in regards to modern performacne of Beethoven Symphonies, though the BBC Prom with Jansssons leading the Choral is fairly much a sure fire great performance in the making, later this summer...
I am sure some others will chip in with singular great performances of individual symphonies...
I hope this helps a little.
Kindest regards form Fredrik
PS: Testamant have this year reissued a whole cycle taken from live performances in London and Denmark of Klemperer, and this maybe a very interesting set of single discs, which will be my next Beethoven investigation, with recordings from 1957 to the mid 1960s... No doubt you wil find my views on these here as I obtain them!
I have a temendous opinion of Haitink as one of the great conductors alive today, to rank with Marris Janssons, and Claudio Abbado.
But he is pronbably the most unflambouyant of the great musicians in fornt of the public. His aims are like those of Adrian Boult - a clear sighted presentation of the score almost without seeming intervention fron the central musical mind at work in the recreation.
I an especially pleased to find you enjoying those readings of Beethoven symphonies.
Now may I send you to investigate not a whole cycle, but certain very special performances of individual symphonies - not least because I am not sure any individual conductor has done them all better than another in another symphony!
Symphony No One:
-Klemperer, Philharmonia, 1958 [EMI]
-Bruno Walter, Columbia symphony Orch, 1960 [Sony/CBS]
-Pierre Montueux, VPO, 1958. [Decca/RCA]
Symphony No Two:
-Klemperer, Philharmonia, 1958 [EMI]
-Bruno Walter, CSO, 1960 [Sony/CBS]
Eroica Symphony [No Three]
-Klemperer, Philharmonis, 1954 [EMI Mono]
-Erich Kleiber, VPO, 1954 [Decca Mono]
-Klemperer, Philharmonia, 1963 [EMI Stereo], which is an alternate and more magesterial view than the Mono set.
-Furtwangler, VPO, 1944 Tahra (French label) from Reichsrundfunk tape], which I persoanlly cannot take any longer given the fact of the performance in Nazi Austria, by a certain, at that time, Nazi collaborator. It is a phenomenal performance almost as fine as Klemperer's 1954 set.
Fourth Symphony:
-Klemperer, Philharmonia, 1958 [EMI]
-Bruno Walter, CSO [Sony/CBS]
Fifth Symphony:
-Klemperer, Philharmonia, 1954 [EMI Mono]
-Erich Kleiber Concertbebeouw Orch, 1954 [Decca Mono]
-Furtangler, BPO, May 1954 live, [Tahra], by now Furtwangler's position viz-a-viz the Nazi's was clear following some serious self examination. This rivals another great live recording, I know from Klepereer.
-Klermperer. VPO, 1968 live. [DG (nla) VPO 150 Anno celebration, rereleased on Testamrent]
Pastoral symphony:
-Bruna waler, CSO, 1960 [CBS/Sony]
-Karl Boehm, VPO, 1973, [DG]
-Erich Kleiber, Concertgebeouw, 1954 {Decca Mono]
-Klemperer, Philharmonia, 1958 [EMI]. This has one oddity in the tempo of the Peasnant's Dance, which is distinctly not not a hurried urban version. The rest of the symphony has all the heart's ease of the urban Beethoven [and Klemperer] enjoying the relaxation of the real country-side.
Seventh Symphony:
Furtwangler, VPO, Salzburg live in 1954, [Orfeo from Ausrian radio tape- Mono]
-Klemperer, Philharmonia, 19545 [EMI pioneering modern Stereo!]
Eighth Symphony:
-Monteux, VPO, 1958 [Decca]
-Klemperer, Philharmonia, 1958 [EMI]
-Bruno Walter, CSO, 1960, [Sony/CBS]
-Furtwangler, VPO, May 1954 live [Tahra from radio tape from Berlin]
Choral Symphony:
-Klepmperer, Philharmonia, in order of preference: Live 1961 on Testament [Mono], live 1957 on Testament [Stereo], and stereo studio 1957 on EMI.
-Furtwqngler, Philharmonia, live at Lucerne in 1954. Tahra [Mono].
I know that is a long list centering on the great Germanic tradition of performence, but none of these recording reveal a less than great performance, and honestly there is no one alive today to match Walter, Klemperer, at their greatest in Beethoven. Perhap I might suggest you start with one reocrding from the above list to see if you agree with my thesis that sadly we are currently in a serious desert in regards to modern performacne of Beethoven Symphonies, though the BBC Prom with Jansssons leading the Choral is fairly much a sure fire great performance in the making, later this summer...
I am sure some others will chip in with singular great performances of individual symphonies...
I hope this helps a little.
Kindest regards form Fredrik
PS: Testamant have this year reissued a whole cycle taken from live performances in London and Denmark of Klemperer, and this maybe a very interesting set of single discs, which will be my next Beethoven investigation, with recordings from 1957 to the mid 1960s... No doubt you wil find my views on these here as I obtain them!
Posted on: 11 May 2007 by fidelio
fredrik -
thank you for your very interesting and informative post about beethoven conductors.
i admit i don't know a lot about beethoven (i'll admit i don't know a lot about anything!), but i am curious as to how many conductors have recorded the whole cycle of nine symphonies. i suppose this should include older recordings, as this is really sort of an academic question.
we have haitink, of course, as mentioned in seanbeer's thread-starter (i've actually always liked haitink, he seems very exact and diligent, as well a conductor should be), and i can think of one or two others. but it's time for the classical scholars to step forward! i am sure we are all also of course curious as to comments and opinions about the recordings. i suppose this may have been addressed here before, but perhaps a new thread may bring forth additional fun anecdotes ....
thanks.
(ps - fredrik, you may be interested to learn that my son is in his second year studying classical doublebass at the calif. institute of the arts.)
thank you for your very interesting and informative post about beethoven conductors.
i admit i don't know a lot about beethoven (i'll admit i don't know a lot about anything!), but i am curious as to how many conductors have recorded the whole cycle of nine symphonies. i suppose this should include older recordings, as this is really sort of an academic question.
we have haitink, of course, as mentioned in seanbeer's thread-starter (i've actually always liked haitink, he seems very exact and diligent, as well a conductor should be), and i can think of one or two others. but it's time for the classical scholars to step forward! i am sure we are all also of course curious as to comments and opinions about the recordings. i suppose this may have been addressed here before, but perhaps a new thread may bring forth additional fun anecdotes ....
thanks.
(ps - fredrik, you may be interested to learn that my son is in his second year studying classical doublebass at the calif. institute of the arts.)
Posted on: 11 May 2007 by u5227470736789439
Dear Fidelio,
The double-bass is a very satisfying istrument to play in the orchestra - far more important than is generally realised. I wish your son "all the very best" in his studies! He will even get a section solo in the Choral, of course!!
ATB from Fredrik
The double-bass is a very satisfying istrument to play in the orchestra - far more important than is generally realised. I wish your son "all the very best" in his studies! He will even get a section solo in the Choral, of course!!
ATB from Fredrik
Posted on: 11 May 2007 by JamH
He is a bit out of fashion but personally I really like Herbert von Karajan and the Berlin Philharmonic [version from the sixties].
James H.
James H.
Posted on: 11 May 2007 by Seanbeer
Fredrik_Fiske,
Nice list for homework, surely I will have to seek some out. Most of my other beethovens are Karajan's and I also have a set by Bohm.
Nice list for homework, surely I will have to seek some out. Most of my other beethovens are Karajan's and I also have a set by Bohm.
Posted on: 11 May 2007 by u5227470736789439
Dear Sean,
Look out Boehm's Pastoral! In my view it is the best on records! That is a start! Mainly, remember to keep this a fun thing!
ATB from Fredrik
PS: Corretion,
the Furtwangler recording of Eight is live at salzburg on Orfeo fromAutrian Radio tapes and is from August 1954. I did it of the top of my head, so I apologise for this error. It is coupled with Seven from the same concert, Furtwangler's third last...
Look out Boehm's Pastoral! In my view it is the best on records! That is a start! Mainly, remember to keep this a fun thing!
ATB from Fredrik
PS: Corretion,
the Furtwangler recording of Eight is live at salzburg on Orfeo fromAutrian Radio tapes and is from August 1954. I did it of the top of my head, so I apologise for this error. It is coupled with Seven from the same concert, Furtwangler's third last...
Posted on: 11 May 2007 by Tam
Haitink at his finest is an extraordinary conductor, for all the reasons given by others above (and the Beethoven 4&8 or his Mahler 3 are just a couple of examples of that). However, I've also had a lot of recordings from him that have simply fallen flat. Sometimes, in the case of some of Mahler's biggest symphonies, I think just doesn't capture the sheer force required. In the case of the Beethoven eroica or the Brahms it's a little more difficult to say what went wrong.
Of course, he's not alone. Furtwangler, another conductor whom I greatly admire, varies widely (in general between his excellent live recordings and his less so studio efforts).
Fredrik, an interesting list as ever. But it strikes me as missing one very important Germanic conductor from that era: Eugen Jochum. He recorded the symphonies 3 times (some more) over the years and with some very impressive results.
James, you mention Karajan. I have that set and I don't really get on with it. It suffers, for me, from the problem he too often did, that of being over-regimented. That said, I'm told his 70s cycle is the one to go for.
Fidelio, given your name, I'd assumed you were something of a fan of Beethoven (it being, after all, his only opera).
regards, Tam
Of course, he's not alone. Furtwangler, another conductor whom I greatly admire, varies widely (in general between his excellent live recordings and his less so studio efforts).
Fredrik, an interesting list as ever. But it strikes me as missing one very important Germanic conductor from that era: Eugen Jochum. He recorded the symphonies 3 times (some more) over the years and with some very impressive results.
James, you mention Karajan. I have that set and I don't really get on with it. It suffers, for me, from the problem he too often did, that of being over-regimented. That said, I'm told his 70s cycle is the one to go for.
Fidelio, given your name, I'd assumed you were something of a fan of Beethoven (it being, after all, his only opera).
regards, Tam
Posted on: 11 May 2007 by JamH
Hello Seanbeer an Fidelio,
It's off topic but also try to hear the Beethoven symphonies played on piano by Listz. [He transscribed the symphonys for piano - Naxos have a set of recordings which are quite good].
There is a verion of No. 6 by Glenn Gould which I really like [he plays it very very slow and, of course, sings along with it -- an acquired taste].
James H.
It's off topic but also try to hear the Beethoven symphonies played on piano by Listz. [He transscribed the symphonys for piano - Naxos have a set of recordings which are quite good].
There is a verion of No. 6 by Glenn Gould which I really like [he plays it very very slow and, of course, sings along with it -- an acquired taste].
James H.
Posted on: 11 May 2007 by fidelio
james, yes, i love the lizst transcriptions, have heard a couple of recordings, believe i have a version on vinyl (that's always a mystery as there are seemingly insurmountable storage issues ...). and i have been finding out more about gould - apparently a newish mc sacd exists of a yamaha disklavier "replaying" his early recording of bach's goldberg! quite controversial and worthy of its own thread.
tam - yes "fidelio" was his only opera. but think about who the title character was - kind of like "zorro" or something, no? just a fun/silly email name.
fredrik - thank you for your good wishes. we know well in my household the importance of the doublebass! my son is doing very well, so keep your fingers crossed - as i am sure you know well, creating a career as a classical musician is a little bit of a magic trick. but he called me in great humor a couple of weeks ago, having received his first studio check, for playing on a film score.
i look forward to more interesting bits about good old ludwig and his interpreters. i recently reviewed a thread in another forum on finding the ultimate 9th - consensus was none of them was perfect .... i wonder if the same conductor could do the "ultimate" 6th AND 9th.
food for thought and reflection.
tam - yes "fidelio" was his only opera. but think about who the title character was - kind of like "zorro" or something, no? just a fun/silly email name.
fredrik - thank you for your good wishes. we know well in my household the importance of the doublebass! my son is doing very well, so keep your fingers crossed - as i am sure you know well, creating a career as a classical musician is a little bit of a magic trick. but he called me in great humor a couple of weeks ago, having received his first studio check, for playing on a film score.
i look forward to more interesting bits about good old ludwig and his interpreters. i recently reviewed a thread in another forum on finding the ultimate 9th - consensus was none of them was perfect .... i wonder if the same conductor could do the "ultimate" 6th AND 9th.
food for thought and reflection.
Posted on: 12 May 2007 by Tam
There's no such thing as perfection in any great work. However, there are some 9ths that come reasonably close. The Furtwangler/Bayreuth reading is one good example. Mackerras/RLPO (if you like more authentic tempi) another. I'm very fond of Bernstein's final recording, made in Berlin of Christmas day shortly after the well fell with an orchestra and soloists drawn from various different countries (though it is rather slow and will not be to all tastes). However, probably my favourite is a recent and rather wonderful (not least for the way there is a pervasive tension bubbling under the surface) version from Donald Runnicles and the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra on Telarc.
regards, Tam
regards, Tam
Posted on: 12 May 2007 by acad tsunami
quote:Originally posted by Tam:
There's no such thing as perfection in any great work.
If one can not detect a flaw then it is perfect subjectively. Objective perfection is but a consensus of subjectivities. Therefore there is such a thing as perfection in a great work. It lies in the eye or ear of the beholder and not in the work itself. A piece of work has no inherent qualities. If seanbear thinks his recording is perfect it is because he can not detect any flaws in it so he is in the enviable position of being able to revel in its perfection - until - someone comes along and tells him he is somehow wrong!
Posted on: 12 May 2007 by Tam
I suppose there's some truth in that. However, what I meant by saying there was no such thing as perfection is that with works so great as the 9th symphony, no one reading is ever going to say everything about the work that could be said. Which is one of the beauties of classical music.
regards, Tam
regards, Tam
Posted on: 12 May 2007 by KenM
While I treasure the Kleiber, Klemperer and Boehm recordings, a modern set which for me outshines the others is the one by David Zinman with the Tonhalle Orchestra on Arte Nova. It's cheap too! £22 from Amazon.
Ken
Ken
Posted on: 12 May 2007 by Tam
I've only heard the Zinman 3rd, but in that I find the tempi a touch fast and too rigid (he never seems to know when to slow up and savour the beauty) or hold a pause.
regards, Tam
regards, Tam
Posted on: 12 May 2007 by acad tsunami
quote:Originally posted by Tam:
[QUOTE] no one reading is ever going to say everything about the work that could be said. Which is one of the beauties of classical music.
Now you are talking
Posted on: 12 May 2007 by u5227470736789439
The optimist in me believes that the best performance [so far] is always in the future!
In my view there is no such thing as "definitive" performance. Once it would be achieved, then the music becomes dead and all trhat matters is "that" performance...
The best that might be said of certain performances is that they are "authoritive" in the sense that the performer wsa either the composer or colaborated with him or her.
Examples such as Robert Craft with Stravinsky, Stuart Bedford with Britten, or Robert Kajanus with Sibelius. The best the can be said of any other performance is that it is great. Now this is always personal. But certain musicians achieve performances which are held as great by many people. Then something of a reputation starts as a "great" performer... Three Beethovenians spring to my mind as being among these, though more exist of course: Otto Klemperer, Bruno Walter, and Erich Kleiber. The list could be many times that length without too much controversy, I am sure...
ATB from Fredrik
In my view there is no such thing as "definitive" performance. Once it would be achieved, then the music becomes dead and all trhat matters is "that" performance...
The best that might be said of certain performances is that they are "authoritive" in the sense that the performer wsa either the composer or colaborated with him or her.
Examples such as Robert Craft with Stravinsky, Stuart Bedford with Britten, or Robert Kajanus with Sibelius. The best the can be said of any other performance is that it is great. Now this is always personal. But certain musicians achieve performances which are held as great by many people. Then something of a reputation starts as a "great" performer... Three Beethovenians spring to my mind as being among these, though more exist of course: Otto Klemperer, Bruno Walter, and Erich Kleiber. The list could be many times that length without too much controversy, I am sure...
ATB from Fredrik
Posted on: 12 May 2007 by Cheese
Fredrik,
I am somwhat surprised that you didn't mention Furtwänglers wartime recordings of 5 and 7, so I copied this post I wrote earlier on ZG.
I am somwhat surprised that you didn't mention Furtwänglers wartime recordings of 5 and 7, so I copied this post I wrote earlier on ZG.
quote:Originally posted by Cheese on Zerogain:![]()
Another one for the old farts amongst us. No, hold on - all young conductors in the world should be forced to listen intensely to this gem during their studies before they start conducting at all. Today's music teachers might be horrified at Furtwängler's choices and interpretation of this symphony as a whole - nevertheless it is a wonderful example of musicianship and a lesson in conducting. No matter how much Furtwänglers gimmicks will be criticised by specialists and experts - all theory is basically irrelevant here.
Very much has been written about this performance, being 'the greatest orchestral performance that ever took place', 'the moment when Furtwängler touched the skies', a 'tightrope walk between life and death', and many other overblown phrases. Still, I think most of them were true.
I must admit that Furty's '50s Beethoven cycle isn't the absolute reference for me. Other people (Böhm 9, Klemperer 4 and 6, Karajan ['77] 5, 7 and 9) ended up far more often on my player. But this 5th does beat everything else I have ever heard before by any orchestra.
Well. Take the cellophane off, press 'play' and try to hear what remains of the music amidst loads of background noise. During the first few minutes I was less than impressed, the interpretation starting in a fairly similar way to his 1952-ish version. The orchestra sounds somewhat conventional, nothing magical here to my ears. But then, at around 4', things are changing. The Berlin Philharmonic wakes up, and this ascension will not stop till the end of the symphony. The recording is old and dusty, but Furty's orchestral sound is of such a brilliance and joyfulness that technical issues are rapidly of no relevance whatsoever.
For some reason I never liked the 2nd movement. I found it dull. Not so in this interpretation - I just discovered how wonderful it is. At times it sounds like the Pastorale, Furtwängler manages to show the poetry in a symphony which isn't famous for it otherwise. In that sense, I am pretty convinced he did it 'right' (ie what Beethoven would have wanted it to be played like). The crescendos in the end of the slow movement are full of beauty and pride, Furtwängler definitely loved his country at that time, as did the musicians. A war symphony ? Hardly, unless the war was the very reason for the pride expressed here.
The second movement is so blissful that it could have been a work of art in itself. But then the third movement hits you again, more violently this time, and tension will not decrease until the end of the symphony. Here, for what I can judge, Furtwängler definitely proves (to those who didn't know, like me) that he is more than an artist - he is a genius. Cartesian music theorists must have had their hair on end, because the conductor doesn't really follow the score in the most accurate way. Tempo fluctuates all the time, and at times the musicians were apparently not prepared to it, some violins came a little late... oh well. Another thing I never heard to such an extent are the dynamics. Some passages are so quiet that the listener feels like being hard of hearing, only to be blown off the seat by the next fffff. It is very clear that Furty didn't want his orchestra to sound 'beautiful', and at times it definitely doesn't - but again, no-one misses it. Beauty lies elsewhere here, it's in the work itself. Furtwängler being 'inaccurate' about Beethoven's wishes ? Bollocks. The sheer dynamics of the interpretation would have made Beethoven jump like a little kid and recover his hearing.
It comes even bigger of course. The single most gorgeous moment of the symphony is the bridge between the 3rd and 4th movement. The tension is hardly bearable, it's indescribable, one must hear it to believe it. Furtwängler manages to keep the tension right till the end. Oh, talking about the last bars : in all other versions I heard with other conductors, the last bars of the work sounded very formal and way too long, and at times plain silly (Karajan '77). Not in this version though - Furtwängler increased the tempo to the extent that the orchestra hardly followed. Beautiful ? No. But it sounded just bloody right and Beethoven's score does make sense.
All these moments are nice, but again they are irrelevant compared to the overall impression this interpretation - I should say symphony actually - leaves on you. I thought I knew Beethoven a little, but as a matter of fact, I didn't. Of course, Furtwänglers and his musicians bring in their own touch. I can't remember having heard any orchestral work sound so uniquely joyful.
It is a mystery to me how people, or a nation, feel during a war. Listening to this concert, it appears very clearly that in 1943, most Germans (and probably even Furtwängler) weren't aware that things were turning sour for them on the Front - you can almost physically feel the Aufbruchstimmung. Or did the musicians play that way to enhance their hopes and confidence ?
There is also a 7th symphony on the same disc, also recorded in 1943. But the 5th is such an experience, I just didn't bother to listen to the rest as yet. By the way I wanted to order Carlos Kleiber's 5 and 7 but I fear even these most acclaimed versions have meanwhile become obsolete to my ears.
Dare I add that this post is about music, thanks. Needless to say that suggestions for other wartime recordings by Furty are most welcome.
Posted on: 12 May 2007 by Big Brother
Cheese
The trouble with these wartime things is that they tell us a great deal about the angst and uncertainty of the times and also about Furtwangler. Less so about Beethoven, IMHO.
BB
The trouble with these wartime things is that they tell us a great deal about the angst and uncertainty of the times and also about Furtwangler. Less so about Beethoven, IMHO.
BB
Posted on: 12 May 2007 by Big Brother
A wonderful cycle that has not been mentioned, and no, it's not anywhere near definitive. The Joe Krips set on Everest. A great foil to some of the pomp and erzatz 'depth' of some other conductors.
BB
BB
Posted on: 12 May 2007 by fidelio
perhaps a beethoven recording is beethoven telling us about the time in which it was recorded ....