Beethoven 1-9 LSO Bernard Haitink

I have DG's two boxes of Furtwangler's wartime recordings and I absolutely treasure both (as they contain some of the finest performances he ever produced). Not to mention the stunning 1944 eroica with the VPO.

Whether they tell us about the times, I'm less sure. Certainly that must have been a factor, but it doesn't detract, in my view, from their greatness. But when I listen to the violin concerto (I believe the soloist Rohn was the orchestra's leader) or the powerful Schubert 9th, I don't find myself thinking about that, I just get carried away by the performance.

Of course, I know there are some who can't separate the art from the politics and find it impossible to listen to the recordings (which is why Fredrik only mentioned them in passing). Very generously, when he decided to part with his discs from this period, he sent them to me (but the Royal Mail sadly lost them somewhere along the way).


regards, Tam

Dear Cheese,

Nothing on the Planet is going to persuade me to advocate the Wartime recorings, done in Berlin and Vienna, of Wilhelm Furtwangler. In unconditional terms they reprsent, at least arguably, great music making, but that is by no means the whole story. I cannot divorce my reactions to any artist from the conditions they were prepared to work under.

Up till 1935 Furtwngler ramained officially at the helm of the Berlin Philharmonic, defending his Jewish Musicians [including Szymon Goldberg, Conertmaster] and keeping them in their jobs, while at the same time fighting publicly the attempts to coerce him to perform only "approved music," and this cost him his job as he would not tow the "party-line."

However WF chose to remain in Germany and returned to performing with "his" BPO under the compromising conditions sets out by the Nazi Party, including opening the 1938 Nazi Rally at Nuremberg, and also performing at Hitler's Birthday Party Celebrations in [I cannot remember for certain] 1943. He appeared at the Shrine of Nazi Music, the Festspielhaus at Bayreuth till it was closed. And avoided offending his Nazi bosses in the choice of programming, or public utterances. Like many Germans in the higher echelons of society he was completely aware of the plans for the "Final Solution" and the barberous treatment of other groups, most natably, and numerously, Poles, in the Death Camps and Concentration Camps system.

I did a great deal of investigating of this, and no doubt WF was fully aware of his personal dissonance [indicated well in his private norebooks, subsequently published] in pinning his future on Nazi Patronage after 1937 when he returned to active music making in Germany under their iron grip.He had countless chances to leave on his frequent visits to officially neatral Sweden throughout this period.

For myself, I can accept that his performances after 1947, when he was cleared of "actually committing" any crimes in the Nazi era, are non-controversial, but I think his refusal to denounce what he knew was going on between 1938 and January 1945 when he went to Switzerland, mark him out as a Nazi freeloader at the very least, and definately a morally weak man, who put music above human life. I have a real revulsion of any performance given under such disreputable conditions.

Furtwangler subsequently showed signs of profound remorse for his actions in fully backing the Nazi Propoganda machine for eight years, but he seems not even to have realised the moral vacuum that his remaining and Nazi support demonstrated at the time, as is evidenced by his ssurprirse at the Swiss refusing to let him give concerts there after he left the Nazi orbit. In any case he only left Nazi Germany and Austria because some Nazis had never forgotten his initial opposotion to them before 1935, and had threatened him with death in December 1944 had he returned to Berlin. The Swiss put him under an informal house arrest, which lasted until he appeared at the US run de-Nazification trail in 1947.

I am sure that he was a very serious man, but not a great man - only seriously hubristic and foolish - and all too often his performances before the last post-War phase, when he came to reconcile his erroneous ways, with a mature musical style avoiding ridiculous tempi manipulations and overcooked climactic crescendos that commit the first sin in music making of getting faster as the dynamic level rises which marked all too much of his earlier Nazi period work, especially those Wartime recorded performances. Once again one must examine why the recordings were made? As part of the Pro Mi's plan to convince the German Public that every was [fairly] normal under the Nazi Governmemnt.

No, Furtwangler is a very controversial figure whose history cannot be divorced from either his performance style, or his noteriety in the field of German music making.

Kindest regards from Fredrik

PS: Rather than derail this thread I am prepared to go into Musical/Nazi colaboration in another Thread if you want to. I have done a lot of work on this as I once was highly interested in this most exotic of German musicians. His position was far more compromising in my view than say thase of Karl Boehm, Herbert von Karajan ot Eugen Jochum for example, but I could explain that elsewhere if you cared to start a new Thread.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Brother:
A wonderful cycle that has not been mentioned, and no, it's not anywhere near definitive. The Joe Krips set on Everest. A great foil to some of the pomp and erzatz 'depth' of some other conductors.


BB

Dear Big Brother,

I can believe that! Sir Adrian Boult [who was no fool when commenting on the skills of his colegues] regarded Kripps as the greatest conductor from the Germanic world after Bruno Walter. They shared the principal conductor's role in Vienna [Philharmonic] from the cessation of histilities till 1946 while the artistsic life of Vienna was being re-established.

Boult's comment was that it was a shame that his talent would be "be snuffed out in Vinna as his will be replaced by the former Nazi musicians again." Reference for this can be found in Micheal Kennedy's Biography of Boult. Boult was rather sagacious in matters political as well. Boult also recorded for Everest including a very fine account of the Eroica.

ATB from Fredrik

quote:

Originally posted earlier by Cheese:
Dare I add that this post is about music, thanks.

You started it, Fredrik, so I feel I have the right to give a short answer. Thanks for your explanations, but personally I do not feel able (nor is it my job) to judge any actions done by this or that person during a war, regardless which one. I dare say as well that unless you are close to 100 years old, Fredrik, you are most probably more knowledgeable on classical music than on what really happened during WWII. And sorry but we haven't yet been apponted guards of international ethics so it's not our role to judge Wilhelm Furtwängler.

More sarcastically Fredrik, may I suggest you to destroy your copy of Let It Be ? It's been produced by a presumed murderer after all.

Now let's get back to Ludwig van.

quote:

Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
Boult also recorded for Everest including a very fine account of the Eroica.

ATB from Fredrik

Fredrik,

He also recorded an interesting account of Mahler's First, a reading which at first I found fairly dull but as I listen more it becomes one of my favorite Mahler discs. Much more subtle and interesting than Bernstein's whose account now sounds brash and two dimensional to me.

Not to get off the subject of the thread but I,for one, would be very interested to hear your findings about Furtwangler, when or if, you feel it appropriate.



Best Regards

Big Brother

quote:

Originally posted by Cheese:


More sarcastically Fredrik, may I suggest you to destroy your copy of Let It Be ? It's been produced by a presumed murderer after all.

Cheese

I'm afraid you've left your self wide open here, are you suggesting moral judgements are not appropriate, or only appropriate when divorced from aesthetics ?

Was Phil Spector a murderer when he produced the Beatles? Was his a crime of passion or the silent consent of the cold blooded murder of 12 million innocents ?


BB

See new thread (under Padded Cell of course).

quote:

Originally posted by Big Brother:
Was Phil Spector a murderer when he produced the Beatles? Was his a crime of passion or the silent consent of the cold blooded murder of 12 million innocents ?

I have no idea. But I don't think your characterisation of Furtwangler is quite fair as it presupposes the extent to which he was aware of what was occurring. I'd also not that Furtwangler was not nearly as compliant a supporter of the Nazis as some and never joined the party (unlike Karajan, Schwarzkopf or Bohm).

There was a piece in Gramophone a little while back that touched on this and one of the people being interviewed was a young violinist who said Furtwangler should have left and, rather stupidly (in my view), that she would have done so. I think it's very easy for us to sit here comfortably and judge artists like but I don't think anyone knows how they'd behave faced with those sorts of choices and I hope none of us ever has to find out.


A more pertinent question is this, if one doesn't listen to the wartime recordings, what else must we discard? What about recordings made in the Soviet Union? Here was a regime every bit as vile as the Nazis, responsible for the deaths of millions of its citizens and which ruthlessly punished dissent. There are other examples too.

Tam

I am not suggesting anyone discard art on the basis of moral grounds, only that everything needs to be taken into account. I Don't know what I would have done if I were in a similar dilemma as Furtwangler, but no one is holding me up as an example of a 'great' artist. Should O.J. Simpson be inducted into the Football hall of Fame ? In my view, no, others may disagree and that's fine.

As far as I know, Russian culture was in a fairly lamentable state during the Soviet period. I'd take Stravinsky, Scriabin and Tchaikovsky over Shostakovich and Prokofiev any day. Now that you mention it, are their any Soviet artists I especially admire ? Not really, so I guess your question is moot in my case.


Regards


BB

Dear Tam and BB,

Rostropovich is one example of a Soviet artists at the top of the tree who fell out of favour for his blunt honesty. It is possible. Casals did, and he Busch brothers did, Furtwangler and Mravinsky in their respective situations chose not too.

I tend to think that not only is a judgement possible, but howver uncomfortable it may be, it becomes inevtable, eventually.

After all what was saurce from Rostropovich surely also was for Mravinsky in USSR, and what was saurce for the non-Jewish Busch brothers [Fritz, Adolf, and Hermann] was also saurce for Furwangler...

Nothing would induce me to buy any of the fabled Mravinsky Tchaikowsky recordings for example for this very reason.

Kindest regards from Fredrik

But that is largely my point - I'm saying he was a great artist, not a great human being (although I don't think he was nearly as bad as he is often painted). Should OJ be inducted into the hall of fame? Well, I know nothing about football, so I don't know whether he merits it on those grounds. Of course, he is accused of murder (albeit found innocent in one court and guilty in anohther). I suppose in some ways that makes him a good example as there is, to say the least, question as to his character. So, I would agree that moral issues should come up when judging art. As I said above, I understand why some people won't listen to Furtwangler for these reasons, and I respect that. However, I'm not sure I've come across circumstances where the morals of an artist have caused me to boycott the art (that's not to say I can't envisage them). But take Wagner, who was a pretty awful person, I think if one ignores his music because of his views, in a funny way he wins.

The Soviet period produced some pretty impressive artists in my view, Rostropovich, Kondrashin, Richter to name but the first three that spring into my head? Of course this may be less so if you don't care for Shostokovich or Prokofiev (and, of course, Rostropovich left his country).

regards, Tam

Dear Fredrik,

Again, I understand, and I respect your view (though I personally wouldn't wish to be parted from the Mravinsky either).

The only reason I'm at all wound up on this is that recently on another forum when this came out, and I made mention of Russia, someone who'd been saying he couldn't stand to listen to Furtwangler replied about what an enlightened place for the arts the Soviet Union was. I decided to walk away from that thread as it was only making me cross. And I regret that I may have taken out some of my frustration over that hypocrisy amongst some of Furtwangler's critics which isn't in evidence from the posters here. Sorry.

regards, Tam

Dear Tam,

There is absolutely no reason to apologise to me! I, like you, twenty years ago had a fascination with Furtwangler's musicianship, but eventually was robbed of my admiration of his work on two grounds. One was the realisation that his musical approach is possibly seen as a sledge hammer to crack a nut, and as I got older I found more satisfaction from the subtle inner logic of such artists as Klemperer, and Boult, to mention just two, and also my ongoing fascination with history, which eventually undermined Furtwangler, Mravinsky and others in my affections as well.

I don't expect anyone to take my word for it, but as you know I have been going along this road for a long time. Perhaps if I had taken someone with me at each stage they would still disagree with me, but perhaps not.

I like this place for the general ability to disagree without rancour!

Kindest regards fromn Fredrik

wow. our beethoven thread went down a byway. oh well. but i believe it a very serious issue, and understand the furtwangler problem well. perhaps it needs to come up in every thread mentioning beethoven's great interpreters, perhaps not.

i guess i would say i respect very greatly those who stood up to stalin and hitler, many of whom paid a terrible price, while i would rather not criticize or judge those caught up in the paroxysms of history who were perhaps not the best examples of political courage -- after all, i have not faced such a nightmare in my country, yet. but i do shy away from von karajan and furtwangler recordings, although i would rather vote w/ my credit card, so to speak, than make speeches, although no offense meant to those who do make them.

i work in the courts in downtown los angeles and have to admit i am personally repulsed by a system which pronounced simpson innocent. here we have two innocents slaughtered by a egomaniacal murderer, who continues to enjoy his retirement. there are so many things wrong with the american judicial system i do not wish to even start on a critique.

there is an easy solution to the spector problem - "let it be naked." it's better anyway.

as far as shostakovich, i love his string quartets. i see no reason to castigate the man for having the misfortune to live under stalin's tyranny.

perhaps the ludwig thread can be revived. he is a timeless composer, and look at the tyrant of his day - napoleon! there's a lot of possible sidebars there ....

forgot to mention a book about beethoven's 9th i read a couple of years ago - theme was its political uses. fascinating. somewhat academic work. the 9th has been adopted by nazis, anarchists, union lefties, french royalists, apoliticals, you name it, it seems every political group has jumped on the "ode to joy" bandwagon. certainly puts every issue in this thread into perspective.

if anyone is interested, i will dig it up and provide the exact title, author, etc.

Dear Fidelio,

That would be nice, if you don't mind.

ATB from Fredrik

fredrik:

i am pleased you would be interested. i would loan you my copy, but that's not really practical ... you will find it a fascinating study, i think.

Beethoven's Ninth: A Political History. author buch, trans. miller (french to eng.?), publ. univ. of chicago press.

Thanks for that. No doubt Worcester Library will be able to get it for me.

More reading round the subject! Did you see the other Thread in the Padded Cell, "Reply to Big Brother," by Cheese. It is quite interesting considering the Politics that has always surounded great music and its performance!

Cheers from Fredrik

quote:

Originally posted by fidelio:
as far as shostakovich, i love his string quartets. i see no reason to castigate the man for having the misfortune to live under stalin's tyranny.

Fidelio,

Nor do I. I castigate him for writing music which I find personally boring and/or distasteful.


Cordially

BB

bb - well, everybody likes diff. stuff. enjoy the day, bro' ....

quote:

Originally posted by Big Brother:
Fidelio,

Nor do I. I castigate him for writing music which I find personally boring and/or distasteful.


Cordially

BB

Well, that did sound kind of boorish, so let me qualify my statement.

Many years ago I heard Bernstein's recording of the 5th symphony and found it very moving. Apparently one of his tempos in the finale did not follow the party line or something but that was okay, it was cool he lavished so much attention on the piece to begin with.

Years ago, before the fall of the iron curtain, I heard his son conduct the 1st and fourth symphonies in concert. The reviewer at the concert said something about the "added richness of the strings" or somethin, but it didn't mean booyaa to me.

Fast foreward to today, for some reason the mention of this composer brings about an unbearable fatigue in my bones. No doubt this is due mostly to ignorance and yes, we've gone way off topic.


BB


P.S. By the way, since when did going off topic become a federal crime ? Shostakovich thread anyone ??

Composers, conductors, artists and anyone else living under oppressive or immoral regimes -what are they to do? If they are brave, they oppose the system, but in doing so they may well endanger other people. Germany under Hitler and USSR under Stalin were places where whole families were imprisoned and/or executed because of one individual's defiance.

Shostakovich, Rostropovich, Richter, Furtwangler and many, many others kept their heads down and in doing so, protected their families. But the more prominent the artst, the more difficult it would be to avoid being identified with the regime they lived under.

I cannot say for certain how these artists felt about their regimes, and I feel sure that if members of this forum found themselves living under an evil government, they would consider their families before standing on principles.

My wife's grandfather (a life-long Socialist by the way) had a position of responsibility in Berlin during the war. He also had a Jewish wife. They survived by working with the regime when they had to. So, I suspect did many of those castigated in this thread. Just appreciate them for their art.

Dear Ken,

In 1935 Furtwangler was sacked by the Nazis. He had the perfect opportunity to leave at that time. Frankly he prefered to stay on and in 1937 gave in to them in their requiremnts to serve to Pro Mi mission of claiming some senblance of normality in artistic life, among the growing madness the regime was instituting. He conceded that he could easily have left at the time. There was no risk to his family, he was between marriages, his parents, long deceased. He could equally have left on any of his visits to Sweden, with absolutely no risk to anyone.

Kindest regards from Fredrik

Dear Fredrik,
We are going to have to differ on this. I am very wary of such condemnation with the benefit of hindsight. Who knows what people thought and more importantly, felt at the time? Furtwangler was German, patriotism was running high and Hitler had been confirmed as Fuhrer by taking 90% of the votes cast in a referendum. Many Jews stayed in Germany because they regarded themselves as patriots. It is incredibly difficult to imagine what we would have done in similar circumstances.
But even if you do not share my opinions, you argue with your usual courteous manner and for this, I thank you.
Regards,
Ken