New speakers for me - The results.

Posted by: Tony L on 30 January 2002

This is going to be a bloody long post, so I apologise in advance…

I spent a very enjoyable evening with Bob and Derek from Neat yesterday. At about 7:30 they turned up with a van full of speakers. As I wanted to keep within certain budget / system synergy constraints I opted to listen to the Mystique, Petite, and a pair of IBLs they had knocking about at their factory. My ex-drummer mate Roger was around to lend an ear (singular) to the occasion.

What I hoped to learn from the proceedings threefold:

1. Is the aspect of my systems performance that I don't like down to the speaker / room interface?

2. Is the fact that I much prefer listening to some music rather than other stuff I like equally down to my current choice of speakers?

3. Is the Nait really good enough for what I want out of my system?

As many who hang out in the Music Room will have noticed, I have very wide "taste" in music - I can find stuff I love in just about any genre, so point 2 above is critically important to me. As this is the case I chose a quite diverse range of music to play. Here is the playlist, though not every single track got played on every single speaker.

Right, onto the speakers - remember I the following is purely my perspectives on the following speakers performance in my room driven by my system. I am not stating absolutes.

First up Kan IIs. Where to start with a speaker that I have used for the best part of 13 years off and on (and way more on than off), and in about six different rooms. I know exactly what they do and what they do not do. They are not too happy in my current room (hence this whole listening session). The Dexter Gordon sounds too light in the bottom, and really draws the listeners attention to the brass and snare. They sound very open and detailed, but very biased towards the midrange. The Kans absolutely love the Firehose track, and also do Mogwai, Can, Lambchop, and Kings of convenience really well indeed. Their forte is IMHO rock music in a small room, and in that context they are hard to beat at any price. They absolutely hate Mahler and Frank, sounding very wrong tonally on either.

Next in was the Mystique. Immediate culture shock. I was simply not prepared for the sheer difference in presentation between these and the Kans, it took a couple of tracks to adjust. Tonally the Mystique is far darker than the Kan, and it has one hell of a lot more bass extension - I would say at least an octave more, and I do not use that term lightly like many reviewers… I'm a bass player! Once I began to adapt to the new presentation I realised beyond any slight shadow of a doubt that my plan to change speakers to fill this room was correct. So that is question one answered conclusively. I initially thought the Mystiques to be a bit shut-in, but after a few tracks worth I began to think of them being flat and the Kans being too brightly lit in the mid. The Mystique is not a speaker that shouts "look at me" at all. It is IMHO remarkably well balanced. The whole speaker is beautifully integrated right from the top to the bottom, and they really worked in my room showing a really, deep powerful and controlled bass that was totally free of boom. I spent a hell of a lot of time with this speaker and played all of the albums listed above, all were dealt with evenly - I could not catch these speakers out. I really like the Mystique, they suit my system and room fantastically well. I had the feeling that I could happily play any musical genre and that the system was in total balance.

Third up was the Petite. This sounded far more familiar, I stand by what I have said in the past that the Petite is a slightly wider bandwidth Kan with a far flatter response. I felt I was back on home turf in a way. That strange tweeter is amongst the best I have heard anywhere, it is remarkably extended and clean, in fact I was surprised my self with how much treble extension I have left in my ears! The way they do brushwork on cymbals is amazing. The bass is a little tighter and a lot less extended than the Mystique, and somehow it did not integrate to my room as well. Like the Kan it favoured the rock and smaller scale stuff I played, though it definitely faired way better with Dexter Gordon and Billie Holiday than the Kans, and they were great fun on Can, Mogwai, Grace Jones and Firehose. Frank was not quite right though, he sounded to lean. I insist that Frank be kept happy with any future speaker choice. I liked the Petite a hell of a lot, and I would rate them as a stunning choice in a slightly smaller room. They also left me with the feeling that they were just a little too revealing for my system, they weren't exactly shouting 52 / 250, but they did slightly hint at it. I would recommend any Kan fans out there with high end stuff up front give a listen - they really are better Kans.

Finally IBLs The pair in question are a really nice condition black ash Mk 1. I know I'm going to piss some people right off here, but I don't like 'em! The top end is fabulous, the tweeter does cymbals etc nearly as well as the petite, certainly they are more open here than either the Mystique or Kan II, a lot of this is tonal balance though, they are very bright. Its lower down where things go a bit pear shaped (remember I am only talking about my system / room here). The IBL is way more coloured than the Kan! The mid band / upper bass sounded hollow in a really bloody weird way, and they really did not have enough bass to drive the room. Low notes sounded overdamped and artificial. The Mahler was hopeless. Frank was not happy. I would like to hear a pair in a small room with rear wall reinforcement, I suspect if the bizarre tonality could be straightened out a bit they would be excellent. They are really fast and tight, and the top is excellent, but that ain't enough for me. I very much prefer my Kans. I have obviously not done a great sales pitch on these, but I strongly suspect they are available if anyone wants them - they are in stunningly good condition. For the record the Neat dudes reckoned the IBLs sounded way better at mine than they had done anywhere else!

So, I'm buying a pair of Mystiques! I will land a pair as soon as I get my next job. They answered all my three questions. The system just felt right, the synergy was back, it was full range, fun, and could play absolutely anything I threw at it from Dexter Gordon to Grooverider to Mahler to Firehose to Kings of convenience to Can etc, it played them all equally well which is so important to me. The Mystiques really did Frank too, what more can I ask.

There were no differences of opinion between those present, we all liked the Mystique in this system and room context. So, finally, that’s my bloody hi-fi done.

Tony.

[This message was edited by Tony Lonorgan on WEDNESDAY 30 January 2002 at 11:10.]

Posted on: 31 January 2002 by Justin
Oh my God,

I resisted posting on the Neat Petites until now, after reading your post. My situation is somewhat like Tony's. I have Kan II's and sbls. A few days ago, i took delivery of a pair of Petites on extended demo, and have been listening to them a lot.

I hesitated to express my opinion on thier bass because I though everybody would call me a loon. BUT IT IS EXACTLY AS YOU (joe) describe it. The Petite's bass is really odd in that it's too thin when out in the room, but one-noted when closer to the wall.

Posted on: 31 January 2002 by Justin
1. When out from the wall, the bass is too thin. Acoustic bass lines are MIA. Still, I mind the midrange relatively full-bodied (compared to Kan II).

2. When closer to the wall, the speaker gets fuller (and there is more percieved bass), but it's all ONE note. You can't make out the differant strings being plucked on the acoustic bass (for instance), but you can better tell that at least the bass is being played.

Compared to the kan II, the Petite is fuller over-all (particularly in the midrange) and "appears" to go a great deal deaper. BUT, the Kan II's bass is MUCH better differentiated. I can actually hear the low notes (not too low, of course). On the petites, the lower stuff seems louder, but it's all the same note--all without being boomy.

Anyway, i don't find the Petites's tweeter to be much more extended than the Hiquophone (maybe a bit). But, I do find a very narrow band in the Petite where the treble glares. This is particularly evident on performers like Joni Mitchel (during falsetto's, etc.) and yet, the petite's tweeter is really smoother and sweet both above and below this narrow "glaring" band.

I like the Petite's midrange better than the Kan II's. It's fuller bodied and more naturally colored. It images much better in the sense that it lends presence to the voices (and horns, piano's, etc.) in that region. Of course, it gives the impression that it is over-all a bit darker than the kan II. Here, I think Tony is corrent. The Kan II is probably a bit too "lighted" in this aspect, and the Petite is closer to the truth here.

I find the Petites an enigma. They have great drive, and bass is really tight. They give up very little in terms of speed (maybe, just a bit) and to my ears, they get the midrange "right". AND, I think the treble situation is not really a big issue, as I find that it can be tamed a bit with placement and toe-in (perhaps stands and cables--it's just that small of an issue. BUT, even though the bass is low, it's all one note. This ultimately hinders my ability to appreciate the speaker.

I've made no final decisions, but I do prefer both the petites and the Kan II to the sbl's in my system.

Judd

Posted on: 01 February 2002 by Top Cat
Judd,

You mention that you had problems with the Petite's bass. Have you tried the Gravitas subwoofer-cum-stands? Perhaps they would work for you.

I think the bass integrity and solidity is wholely a factor of the positioning and room interaction - I found exactly the same thing when I first got the speakers - fantastic, faster-than-Kans speed without the migraines, but a lean bass. Moving up to a more commanding amp helped a lot, as did looking at toe-in (minus FEPs, of course).

With the Gravitas, I think the Petites form a unique combination, with everything I could really wish for in a speaker, apart from looks wink - not that it's an ugly speaker by Linn standards, but it's not as pretty as Sonus Faber, say. Like the Kan, if everything is right upstream then the speaker shouldn't let you down, so any leanness I'd attribute partly to positioning and setup and partly to source/amp inadequacies.

More importantly, the Petites seem to be extremely capable and musical beasts, far more musical than their moderate price would suggest. The fact that they're overlooked in favour of other speakers is a real injustice to a cracking speaker, and one which really won't be left behind when you upgrade components.

FWIW, I found that the Petites relish a decent speaker cable, sound better with the supplied foam inserts IN the port, and respond beautifully to a little bit of toe-in. Not very flat-earth, but the sound is wonderful.

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Posted on: 01 February 2002 by Mike Sae
Strange that Judd n' Joe couldn't get the Petite going. AFAIK, the Petite is the speaker that "made" Neat- I would have thought it a safe blind-buy.

quote:
everything I could really wish for in a speaker, apart from looks

That's odd, I think the Petite is nicest looking speaker out there, especially in the black; it compliments the foam plate and driver nicely. The matte foam bit and glossy driver also make a nice contrast.
No grill mounting lugs or nameplate- just an elegant n to remind us it's a Neat.

I'm hard pressed to think of a prettier speaker out there. Of course, once it's plopped on the recommendend Kudos S100 pillar, it loses some of its compact elegance.

quote:
it's not as pretty as Sonus Faber

Hmmm... one man's pretty is another man's incredibly gaudy.

TC, If I move into a smaller place (a distinct possibility), I'd be happy to be your Petite ally.

best,
mike

Posted on: 01 February 2002 by Top Cat
I don't find the Petite 'ugly' in itself, it's just not the prettiest, when sitting on top of the Gravitas subwoofer stands. See below:

...although they're not that bad. Mine are in cherry, exactly as the pair you see there. I have mine sitting on custom-made Mana stands (like little Brik stands) which improves an already wonderful speaker even further. The only drawback with the Gravitas arrangement is that the ensemble becomes rather deep, and more difficult to position discreetly...

Best speakers under £2K, IME.

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Posted on: 01 February 2002 by Tony L
quote:
...but on re-reading your original post, I got the impression you preferred the Petites. Any reason why you ultimately chose the Mystiques?

This is not the case, I preferred the Mystiques. I loved the Petites top end, it is amongst the best I have ever heard from a moving coil loudspeaker, but I felt the bass was too dry and Kan like for my room, plus in my room there was a little boom. I felt the Petite was a stunning speaker in many ways, but I also felt it was a little too explicit for my personal taste and system. I suspect they would be jaw-droppingly good on the end of a high-end Naim system. I bet the larger Elite is absolutely stunning, I did not consider it because its was more than I want to spend and I want to keep a system synergy, I do not want to be forced into additional upgrades.

As for the bass thing with the Petite, I got the impression from Bob and Derek that the Petite is pretty room dependant (as all speakers are really), and that in some rooms it really kicks ass, though others not so. I would like to hear them in a smaller room, the kind that Kans or IBLs would really work in.

I am not sure if my views on the Mystique came across firmly enough… I love the things. They are the only speaker I have ever had in my system that can do Firehose and Frank Sinatra. They may not do Firehose quite as well as the Kan II, or Frank quite as well as the ProAc Tab 50 Sig, but anyone in any doubt about how tough a job this even-handedness is should hear Frank on the Kans and Firehose on the Tabs! Both sound wrong beyond belief. The Mystique is a stunning all-rounder, and with a record collection like mine that is pretty much essential. I am itching to get a pair… (job first, job first, job first…).

Tony.

PS Judd, try the Mystiques (or Elites).

Posted on: 01 February 2002 by Justin
Is it possible that the Petites/Gravitas are under 2000 pounds. My Lord, that combo is $5750. That considerably more than even the normal spread!!!!!!!?!??!?!

Judd

Posted on: 01 February 2002 by Justin
Just how much are the Petites on your side of the pond?

Judd

Posted on: 02 February 2002 by Top Cat
Mine were ex-demo direct from Neat, with the odd surface scuff (but nothing significant) so I got them for considerably less, but their full retail I think is just slightly over the £2K mark.

One down point about the P/G combo is the need for either an extra run of cable between power amp and Gravitas or a jumper lead between Petite's bass and Gravitas. I opted for the second route, with Nordost Red Dawn speaker cable and had them make up custom jumper leads (1' each, spade terminated) and it's sounding great.

I think the Petite may well be a fairly easy speaker to get a good sound out of, but to extract the best I suspect that relatively top-notch speaker cable is a must. Moving from the DNM Reson solid core cable to the Nordost really made the bass response both cleaner, considerably tighter and slightly more extended. The same sort of improvement you'd get by moving a couple of rungs up the poweramp ladder, IMHO.

In the £2K-£2.5K price range, another speaker to consider is their new Vito. Slightly ballsier than the P/G, and a biwire only, it's a good sounding package - if I hadn't heard my P/G, I'd quite possibly find all the speaker I'd ever need in the Vito.

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Posted on: 12 April 2002 by Craig B
et al,

Sorry for dragging this old thread up but I was in the midst of a search bicyle ride and noticed that my post Tony L speaker shootout post didn't stick.

Tony L,

After having had such high expectations re the IBLs possible inclusion in the Lonorgan Estates Flatsystem, I would just like you to know that this particular IBL fan would never be 'pissed' if another flat planet inhabitant didn't get on with them. On the contrary, I am glad that you found something that works in your flat without losing what you cherish most about the Kan 2s (which I also dearly love).

If anything your report has made me very curious as to how the Mystiques might fair in my somewhat odd main room (domestic considerations have dictated that systems 1 and 2 have switched rooms).

Cheers,

Craig
PS There, I feel better now, thanks.