Surface Noise
Posted by: Lark on 14 December 2008
Hi
I have been having a bit of a splurge on new vinyl lately. However one or two have really bad surface noise from the first play, most noticeably Isobel Campbell Sunday at Devil Dirt (phantastic). Is this a problem others are finding?
I was reading an article (probably written by a company that sells record cleaners) that suggested all new vinyl should be cleaned because of the residue/ grease left from production. Is this really a good idea?
In short I am considering getting a record cleaning machine (mid range VPI) as my wife loves buying old vinyl, but I always thought once washed the sound if anything degraded. Basically wash only when needed.
Any views?
Cheers
I have been having a bit of a splurge on new vinyl lately. However one or two have really bad surface noise from the first play, most noticeably Isobel Campbell Sunday at Devil Dirt (phantastic). Is this a problem others are finding?
I was reading an article (probably written by a company that sells record cleaners) that suggested all new vinyl should be cleaned because of the residue/ grease left from production. Is this really a good idea?
In short I am considering getting a record cleaning machine (mid range VPI) as my wife loves buying old vinyl, but I always thought once washed the sound if anything degraded. Basically wash only when needed.
Any views?
Cheers
Posted on: 14 December 2008 by mjamrob
If you're having problems with surface noise on brand new vinyl, I don't think cleaning will help, but there's no harm in trying.
There are those who say cleaning new records will degrade the sound but I am not one of them. I believe it comes down to the cleaner used and I personally steer clear of any alcohol based cleaners - to me they do make records sound worse. I also thoroughly rinse the cleaning fluid off with distilled water and a 2nd vacuum.
You have to be very careful even with a vacuum based RCM as tiny pieces of hard debris attracted to records by static can be rubbed into the vinyl and cause subtle damage. I sometimes dry vacuum the record first.
regards,
mat
There are those who say cleaning new records will degrade the sound but I am not one of them. I believe it comes down to the cleaner used and I personally steer clear of any alcohol based cleaners - to me they do make records sound worse. I also thoroughly rinse the cleaning fluid off with distilled water and a 2nd vacuum.
You have to be very careful even with a vacuum based RCM as tiny pieces of hard debris attracted to records by static can be rubbed into the vinyl and cause subtle damage. I sometimes dry vacuum the record first.
regards,
mat
Posted on: 14 December 2008 by mikeeschman
i would recommend that you buy a record cleaning machine. but you should expect to lose records to surface noise over time.
is it very damp where you are? it is here in New Orleans, and i suffer periodic loss of records due to mold.
lots of crazy beliefs about how to care for records on this forum, but everyone's experience seems to be unique.
sad fact is, records wear out.
is it very damp where you are? it is here in New Orleans, and i suffer periodic loss of records due to mold.
lots of crazy beliefs about how to care for records on this forum, but everyone's experience seems to be unique.
sad fact is, records wear out.
Posted on: 16 December 2008 by tonym
I've noticed the same thing. Some of the vinyl I've bought recently, despite being in a sealed cover, looks quite dirty & marked.
I put all new vinyl through my Moth machine, not just to clean it (which it does very effectively & so far I've not needed to return any albums)but also to eliminate static. Don't know if it's just me/my room/my local climate but static on new albums is a real problem until I "Moth" it, which permanently cures the effect.
I use the standard Moth fluid & I've noticed nothing adverse occurring to the vinyl as a result.
I put all new vinyl through my Moth machine, not just to clean it (which it does very effectively & so far I've not needed to return any albums)but also to eliminate static. Don't know if it's just me/my room/my local climate but static on new albums is a real problem until I "Moth" it, which permanently cures the effect.
I use the standard Moth fluid & I've noticed nothing adverse occurring to the vinyl as a result.
Posted on: 16 December 2008 by kuma
Lark,
If you want your precious cartridge lasts longer, you have to get a vacuum type RCM.
I loath record cleaning, but I reluctantly got one after ruining the Miyabi/47 in less than 6 months.
If you want your precious cartridge lasts longer, you have to get a vacuum type RCM.
I loath record cleaning, but I reluctantly got one after ruining the Miyabi/47 in less than 6 months.
Posted on: 16 December 2008 by warwick
Due to the concern expressed about alcohol based
cleaning fluid in forums I bought some VPI cleaning fluid (google uk search). I had an lp that I couldn't listen to due to surface and now I put in on and focus on the music and am not distracted by surface noise.
I use a KAB $159 machine.
I don't think the purchase of such machine is equivalent to a major equipment upgrade but it is still definitely worthwhile.
cleaning fluid in forums I bought some VPI cleaning fluid (google uk search). I had an lp that I couldn't listen to due to surface and now I put in on and focus on the music and am not distracted by surface noise.
I use a KAB $159 machine.
I don't think the purchase of such machine is equivalent to a major equipment upgrade but it is still definitely worthwhile.
Posted on: 16 December 2008 by Guido Fawkes
quote:John Peel:
Somebody was trying to tell me that CDs are better than vinyl because they don't have any surface noise. I said, Listen, mate, life has surface noise.
Posted on: 16 December 2008 by mikeeschman
surface noise blows. i could live three lifetimes without hearing surface noise, and it wouldn't be long enough.
Posted on: 18 December 2008 by mjamrob
quote:Surface noise on top end vinyl systems, even more so on Active systems can be a pain.
Its there big time between tracks and on classical music in the quiet parts.
If you hear surface noise on any good condition LP on a top end vinyl system then your TT can't be up to much, because I can assure you I can't hear it on my system even on classical LP's I've been playing regularly for 20 years.
Of course there are exceptions such as badly pressed records, and as munch says either return them or bin them.
regards,
mat
Posted on: 18 December 2008 by Julian H
I often have surface noise. Within acceptable limits it matters to me not a jot!
I have noticed an increase of surface noise on new LP's these days. Usually a run through the RCM does the trick.
J
I have noticed an increase of surface noise on new LP's these days. Usually a run through the RCM does the trick.
J
Posted on: 20 December 2008 by J.N.
Hi Karl,
New records often retain some 'mould release agent' which will indeed induce surface noise and gum up yer needle.
I'm another happy Moth RCM owner, which shifts the MRA from new records.
Sadly though, a lot of standard-issue new records (not audiophile pressings) seem to be poorly manufactured/pressed, and sound like it.
John.
New records often retain some 'mould release agent' which will indeed induce surface noise and gum up yer needle.
I'm another happy Moth RCM owner, which shifts the MRA from new records.
Sadly though, a lot of standard-issue new records (not audiophile pressings) seem to be poorly manufactured/pressed, and sound like it.
John.
Posted on: 20 December 2008 by u5227470736789439
Dear John,
In the old days when we accepted surface noise as par for the course, some series of pressings [at new] seemed regularly to be less fine than from other sources.
I used to find that the HMV Concert Classics series often were as clean as their full priced issue predeceasors, but that though full priced Deccas were often as good as it got, that their budget line, Ace Of Clubs series, was more often than not rather noisy and poorly pressed.
Philips records were always good, and tended to a flatness [lack of warping of the disc] not found elsewhere, except on DG.
Some full priced EMI/HMV were terrible for warping from flat. I even reject some like that.
ATB from George
In the old days when we accepted surface noise as par for the course, some series of pressings [at new] seemed regularly to be less fine than from other sources.
I used to find that the HMV Concert Classics series often were as clean as their full priced issue predeceasors, but that though full priced Deccas were often as good as it got, that their budget line, Ace Of Clubs series, was more often than not rather noisy and poorly pressed.
Philips records were always good, and tended to a flatness [lack of warping of the disc] not found elsewhere, except on DG.
Some full priced EMI/HMV were terrible for warping from flat. I even reject some like that.
ATB from George
Posted on: 20 December 2008 by Adam Meredith
Some posts removed.
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the War Room.
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the War Room.
Posted on: 15 January 2009 by gone
I was going to start a new thread, but I think this one will do.
As part of my newly rediscovered love of vinyl, I'm having some real issues with surface noise on some new records.
I just received a new sealed copy of Shelby Lynne, and the surface noise is terrible, which is a real shame as it's a beautiful album.
How can this be with a new disc? It's suppsoed to be an 'audiophile release' on heavy vinyl.
Is this caused by some release agent still contaminating the disc, and will go away after some cleaning/playing, or should I just not put up with it and send it back for a replacement?
What would you do? (I'm not very good at complaining - I must be too British)
Do others have this kind of issue with new vinyl?
I've been buying a fair amount of both new and old vinyl, and I have to say, the old secondhand stuff tends to be much better from the point of view of surface noise.
Cheers
John
As part of my newly rediscovered love of vinyl, I'm having some real issues with surface noise on some new records.
I just received a new sealed copy of Shelby Lynne, and the surface noise is terrible, which is a real shame as it's a beautiful album.
How can this be with a new disc? It's suppsoed to be an 'audiophile release' on heavy vinyl.
Is this caused by some release agent still contaminating the disc, and will go away after some cleaning/playing, or should I just not put up with it and send it back for a replacement?
What would you do? (I'm not very good at complaining - I must be too British)
Do others have this kind of issue with new vinyl?
I've been buying a fair amount of both new and old vinyl, and I have to say, the old secondhand stuff tends to be much better from the point of view of surface noise.
Cheers
John
Posted on: 15 January 2009 by JWM
New purchases aside, if you've got the wonga a Record Cleaning Machine is highly beneficial to all that old and s/h vinyl.
I have the latest version Okki Nokki (less than £300), which is basically a re-badged Clearaudio Smart Matrix, and it has worked absolute wonders. And that is using the Okki Nokki fluid that comes with it, not any other fancy stuff (I've cleaned 250+ LPs since getting it, and still not anywhere near through the fluid).
Unlike the Moth, the Okki Nokki does not sound like a squadron of Tornados on a full re-heat take off.
It will take a little while to learn how to 'drive' your machine, just the right amount of fluid, pressure with the cleaning pad, occasionally whether a record needs a second run, etc, but this art is soon learned.
Good wishes,
James
I have the latest version Okki Nokki (less than £300), which is basically a re-badged Clearaudio Smart Matrix, and it has worked absolute wonders. And that is using the Okki Nokki fluid that comes with it, not any other fancy stuff (I've cleaned 250+ LPs since getting it, and still not anywhere near through the fluid).
Unlike the Moth, the Okki Nokki does not sound like a squadron of Tornados on a full re-heat take off.
It will take a little while to learn how to 'drive' your machine, just the right amount of fluid, pressure with the cleaning pad, occasionally whether a record needs a second run, etc, but this art is soon learned.
Good wishes,
James
Posted on: 15 January 2009 by mjamrob
While a good record cleaner is a great investment if you own lots of vinyl, it isn't a guarantee that it will cure your problem.
It could be a question of poor pressing quality.
I do have one or two disks bought from new (out of 1500 in my collection) that no amount of cleaning will eliminate surface noise.
What I would suggest is to take the offending disk to a dealer with an RCM and get it cleaned to see if it addresses the problem. If it doesn't I would definitely send the disk back, as it's wrong to charge audiophile prices for a disk which is not even pressed properly.
regards,
mat
It could be a question of poor pressing quality.
I do have one or two disks bought from new (out of 1500 in my collection) that no amount of cleaning will eliminate surface noise.
What I would suggest is to take the offending disk to a dealer with an RCM and get it cleaned to see if it addresses the problem. If it doesn't I would definitely send the disk back, as it's wrong to charge audiophile prices for a disk which is not even pressed properly.
regards,
mat
Posted on: 17 January 2009 by Lark
Hi
A new Nick Drake album is filthy. It is sealed etc, but looks dirty. Click, bang, surface noise...sounds great all the same and music is A1, but...Also got brand new Nora live album, perfect, no surface noise etc.
In short I have ordered a VPI 16.5. Hope it eliminates these issues.
Cheers Karl
A new Nick Drake album is filthy. It is sealed etc, but looks dirty. Click, bang, surface noise...sounds great all the same and music is A1, but...Also got brand new Nora live album, perfect, no surface noise etc.
In short I have ordered a VPI 16.5. Hope it eliminates these issues.
Cheers Karl
Posted on: 17 January 2009 by Lark
quote:Originally posted by mjamrob:quote:Surface noise on top end vinyl systems, even more so on Active systems can be a pain.
Its there big time between tracks and on classical music in the quiet parts.
If you hear surface noise on any good condition LP on a top end vinyl system then your TT can't be up to much, because I can assure you I can't hear it on my system even on classical LP's I've been playing regularly for 20 years.
Of course there are exceptions such as badly pressed records, and as munch says either return them or bin them.
regards,
mat
Sorry but I disagree with this. My TT is very fine and the setup is IMO beyond reproach. New vinyl is plain mucky on occasions. This is life and ways to cope have to be found. Hence VPI. I am not willing to move away from vinyl as CD is IMO not in the same ball park. So I am going to keep buying/playing vinyl and try the cleaner.
Cheers
Posted on: 18 January 2009 by mjamrob
What exactly do you disagree with?
regards,
mat
regards,
mat
Posted on: 18 January 2009 by gone
Karl
Please report back on your results. I ordered a Nikki Nokki so should have a chance to experiment with the Shelby Lynne record next week
Please report back on your results. I ordered a Nikki Nokki so should have a chance to experiment with the Shelby Lynne record next week
Posted on: 18 January 2009 by Lark
Will do Nero,and hope you will too.
Cheers Karl
Cheers Karl
Posted on: 18 January 2009 by willem
Wasn't the Peel quote something like 'life is full of clicks and plops'?
Posted on: 18 January 2009 by Bob McC
I'm with Mat. I've a full battle rig LP12/Aro and surface noise is not a problem on my active system.
Posted on: 18 January 2009 by mjamrob
quote:I'm with Mat. I've a full battle rig LP12/Aro and surface noise is not a problem on my active system.
Glad to hear you don't have a problem with surface noise on your full battle rig LP12 Bob
regards,
mat
Posted on: 18 January 2009 by Chief Chirpa
I haven't bought any new vinyl for probably ten years as the condition of brand new records (warped, scratched, etc) was doing my head in.
Are things better or worse now? I've seen some lovely looking vinyl releases lately, like the last Arcade Fire, and I'd mostly be buying that kind of alternative mainstream stuff (as well as all the old Blue Notes I could find, I expect).
(As for old records, I got so used to my brother's original copy of Wish You Were Here being more surface noise than music in places, I thought it sounded kinda strange the first time I heard it on cd about a year ago!)
Are things better or worse now? I've seen some lovely looking vinyl releases lately, like the last Arcade Fire, and I'd mostly be buying that kind of alternative mainstream stuff (as well as all the old Blue Notes I could find, I expect).
(As for old records, I got so used to my brother's original copy of Wish You Were Here being more surface noise than music in places, I thought it sounded kinda strange the first time I heard it on cd about a year ago!)
Posted on: 18 January 2009 by Lark
Hi All
I don't think new vinyl is any different than it has been for the last few years. I think lately I have just bought a mixed bag. Some are perfect and others dirty and noisy.
I don't know where the significance of active and surface noise is coming from, other than the fact that a good % of posters on this thread are active. I am attributing this to the records, not the boxes. It is too random.
I hope the VPI improves the variable condition of my purchases, but it will sure help with my old 12"s and my wifes S/H purchases.
Cheers Karl
I don't think new vinyl is any different than it has been for the last few years. I think lately I have just bought a mixed bag. Some are perfect and others dirty and noisy.
I don't know where the significance of active and surface noise is coming from, other than the fact that a good % of posters on this thread are active. I am attributing this to the records, not the boxes. It is too random.
I hope the VPI improves the variable condition of my purchases, but it will sure help with my old 12"s and my wifes S/H purchases.
Cheers Karl