A big oops for McLaren.

Oh, dear! I hadn't heard that news yet> Not good.

There MUST be something else going on here - the FIA must be very sure of their ground.

There is.
Ferrari are fed up not being champions.

Must be some thing to do with being red and bad sports men.
As I said before FIA - Ferrari International Association.
How bad a taste dos this leave. Ferrari are so desperate to win at any cost. Look at the "interfering" allegations approaching parabolica last year, several cars were 10s of yards closer this year, but no action taken.

My understanding from a couple of insiders was that McClaren had some kind of "hole card" to counter this so may be it is not finished yet.
It seems Ferrari can cheat and get away with. Flexi wings movable planks etc.

How you decide one car has elements of another I don't know. It strikes me they all have similar answers to the same windtunnel questions.

This just doesn't add up.

If the offence was so bad to warrant such a huge fine and the loss of all points (not to mention the loss of good name) then it would point to the fact that the cars are somehow illegal. If that is the case (and I'm not suggesting they are, just hypothesising) then why are the drivers allowed to race on and keep their points ?

I'll wait for the FIA announcement with interest but I think there must be something else going on here.

Regards
Scott

So the only new evidence that was offered was e-mails between the drivers that Dennis knew nothing about.
But the drivers keep their points and race on.
Go figure.

So we finally get a decent competition going in F1 and, it seems, as Ferrari aren't winning it, something has to be done to redress the balance, to ensure that they do.

The action taken may be totally appropriate - we haven't seen the facts, but F1 institutions seem so comprehensively influenced by Ferrari that perhaps this action, if it stands, may be the final straw in the creation of a new Formula which many of the teams have been threatening for years.

This time, they would likely have public opinion behind them and Ferrari can be left to compete with themselves where they are guaranteed victory every season.

This really is a PR catastrophy for F1 & if McLaren really are guilty to warrant such a fine, they should be booted out completely. What an eau de Maranello stink!

Peter

I assume the fines go to charity?

Interesting comment by Big Ron on the BBC report along the lines of we will appeal after reading the full report. This will no doubt be filled legal double-speak and bollocks.

I remember Ferrari getting active suspensions banned, mainly because their's did not work. One of their drivers described it as "making the car jump in the air everytime it went over a piece of grit".

This story also reminds me of the Jeffery Archer case where he was found not guilty of paying a call-girl who was found guilty of accepting the money.

It is just not right.

Jono

Wasn't the Ferrari dossier in McLaren's possession something like 800 pages long?

Is this ok? That they have enough of another team's technical information to build an entire car?

Now lets see if this had been the scenario.

Ferrari caught with McLaren dossier.

What would be the outcome?????????

Hmmmm lets see.

If you cant beat them bugger them and roger them and if that fails sue em.

So McLaren will appeal, the lawyers will get richer the sport will come into disrepute and carry on as if nothing had happened.

Till the next time

regards David

quote:

Howard they were on about that on the news this morning.
Mr E Jordon was on there and he wanted to know where the money would be going

That's interesting cos the same Mr E. Jordan was on Newsnight last night saying the money would go directly to the FIA to help improve driver safety etc.

Seems it would have been worth Ferrari's while to have 'helped' the dossier fall into McLaren's hands.

quote:

Wasn't the Ferrari dossier in McLaren's possession something like 800 pages long?

The dossier was in the hands of ONE McLaren employee at his home. He and a mate from Ferrari were going to take said info to another team for next year. Allegedly.
Said mate from Ferrari spilt the beans re "floppy planks".

I don't see why spying on other teams isn't part of the game anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by DAVOhorn:
Now lets see if this had been the scenario.
Ferrari caught with McLaren dossier.

I wish they would both copy the Williams dossier - we might then have half a chance of returning to our former years of glory.

More seriously you cannot blame Ferrari on the grounds that they aren't winning the championship - Renault/Alonso have won the drivers championship for the last 2 years & prior to Schumacher winning with Ferrari they hadn't won for 20 years.

Furthermore (whinging) Ron is hardly the model of consistency - we have always let our drivers race - they just used to let Haikkenen race a bit faster than Coulthard (not difficult).

No doubt that master politician of F1, Bernie E will prevent any real mess - which effectively means that penalising the drivers is definitely a no-go area - the fans wouldn't like that but they don't mind Ron suffering a bit - after all he makes us suffer every time he grants an interview.

Now it's a tad clearer: Alonso knew

Tony

quote:

Originally posted by BigH47:

The dossier was in the hands of ONE McLaren employee at his home. He and a mate from Ferrari were going to take said info to another team for next year. Allegedly.
Said mate from Ferrari spilt the beans re "floppy planks".

So.... it is okay then?

I can only conclude from most of the contributions to this thread that there is simply a prejudice held against Ferrari by many of the Naim Forum members.

Ferrari hasn't won the championship for two years in a row.

The FIA, for a few years running, actually changed the rules - seemingly with the express purpose of slowing Ferrari down - and they finally managed.

But many of the members here still feel like Ferrari have no right to be faster than anybody else in F1.

Well said Dean.

Now I'm trying to find out why Alonso hasn't been stripped of his points.

Tony

TOny, I do wonder why Hamilton and Alonso have been allowed to continue to race in the same cars. Surely they are effectively racing with illegal cars - or at least, cars that have been disqualified.

quote:

Surely they are effectively racing with illegal cars

What is illegal? Same tyre pressures as another team? Same weight distribution? Same gas in their tyres? There seems an element of they must have done something illegal with this information.If it is so that they have where is the evidence?
As regards the cars,they are literally new cars every couple of weeks so the information if it has/had been used might well have been superceeded by now any way.

"But many of the members here still feel like Ferrari have no right to be faster than anybody else in F1."

Ferrari think no one else has the right to be faster than them.They are usually the ones trying to get others stopped

I managed to read the 14 page ruling and am mystified why Alonso and de la Rosa haven't yet been fired by McLaren.

Hamilton seems innocent except to be perhaps driving an illegal car but the other two drivers are clearly implicated and as such Alonso would not possibly be a worthy winner of the drivers title.

Tim

many of you seem to be completely ignoring that Ferrari's technical information was in possession of McLaren. They didn't get it from the local lending library, nor with Ferrari's permission. This is simply not on. whether or not they "used" any of the information.

Consider McLaren's sponsors. Will they want to continue association with a team that resorts to espionage?

Best thing McLaren could do is own up and say "yep, sorry we were wrong. We apologise to our fans and sponsors, we've sacked the idiots who behaved apallingly. We will not be paying a $100m fine - we've made a $50m donation to charity." and if that doesn't go down well, they can pack up their toys and go race in another championship, telling Bernie to jam it up his arse. He'll not like missing out on $100 million; furthermore, he'd be well screwed if the main competitor pulled out of F1.

Just a thought, anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by BigH47:

What is illegal? Same tyre pressures as another team? Same weight distribution? Same gas in their tyres? There seems an element of they must have done something illegal with this information.If it is so that they have where is the evidence?
As regards the cars,they are literally new cars every couple of weeks so the information if it has/had been used might well have been superceeded by now any way.

Right, so we're clear here. You do thinks it's okay for McLaren to cheat.

quote:

Ferrari think no one else has the right to be faster than them. They are usually the ones trying to get others stopped

But you do not think it's okay for Ferrari to challenge legality through the due processes provided within the sport.

Glad we got that sorted.