I've gone and done this, then:
Thanks to a forum friend, I was able to aquire a pair of Soundbases sans scandalous import duties.
Setting these up on shag carpet is evil punishment. And could they make their nuts any greasier?
First impressions were rather unfavorable. There were substantial improvements in hi-fi criteria like soundstage, top end air and bass transient/detail (especially). These improvments were distracting, and took away from the musical flow of my system. They also lent some brightness/coldness to the tunes. I daresay my Mystiques were transformed into a pair of "well set up" Intros 
As others have suggested, I slept on it. After settling in overnight, the hi-fi clangyness disappeared and the music as a whole improved in terms of clarity, coherence, propulsiveness, grip and especially bass, blah blah blah...
Seems like I've gone one model up in speakers.
To put it in perspective, I don't think these will magically make crap speakers good, but if you're reasonalby satisfied with your current pair, SBs will absolutely improve them. I'm interested as to how these would improve Rega speakers, as it seems SBs would compliment their thin cabinet design and cure their weaknesses.
Well, as the french say, incroyable!
FWIW, they're sitting on concrete.
Note dents in wall from toppling Royd RR1s (they didn't suffer any damage, though).
Posted on: 16 March 2002 by Mike Sae
I've tried concrete slabs under Rega Juras and Elas.
I ultimately preferred them straight onto the floor. In my case, slabs deadened the music somewhat and I couldn't discern any improvements in the bottom end.
However, I used the slabs on carpet over concrete. Perhaps concrete works better on a wooden suspended floor.
SBs are an entirely different matter, as described by many.
Trying very hard not to go ga-ga over these things,
Mike
Posted on: 17 March 2002 by Mike Sae
The top plate of SB1s (pictured) are 29x32 cm,
SB2s are roughly 43x46. As for what they're made of, I've no idea; they're definately not laminated MDF, as MDF is heavier and softer in comparison.
They're not as light and rigid as a Neuance shelf, however.
FWIW, the top and sides are laminated black and the bottoms are brown. The brown laminate seems to be of a different, glossier material IIRC.
I don't precieve the new bass as drier or fatter- it's definately tighter and more detailed, yet at the same time more authoritative, as is the rest of the music.
OK, if someone put a gun to my kneecaps I'd say "drier".
Posted on: 17 March 2002 by garyi
Mike, how do they deal with control of bass. Since the 180 has gone in the SBLs have been dumping a lot of energy into the laminate flooring.
I have tried Nordost points direct to the SBLs (thanks Ade!)
However the conclusion was a lot less energy dumped into the ground, (which I consider a good thing) however the top end became very 'toppy' and ultimatly brash.
Soundbases may be the way forward.
Posted on: 17 March 2002 by MarkEJ
quote:
Originally posted by Kit:
Any idea how these compare with a concrete paving slab or two?
Would tentatively suggest that what Mike's SoundBases are doing is providing the speaker cabinets with something to excite other than themselves, or the floor. Thus the speakers are better able to do their job, without being pestered by the results of their own efforts bouncing arround.
Concrete slabs, being relatively massive, would be hard to excite, and hard to damp, once excited. Theoretically, this would surely obscure the picture -- almost the opposite effect.
The Mana boards are extremely hard and fine-textured particle board, not particularly heavy, but laminated top & sides with very hard laminate. The bottom is just sealed. They cost about 20 quid.
Best;
Mark
(an imperfect
forum environment is
better than none)
Posted on: 17 March 2002 by Mike Sae
I'm with Mark wrt to "providing the speaker cabinets with something to excite other than themselves, or the floor." To add, I've read that this in turn breaks the speaker>floor>electronics vibrational feedback loop (cheers to the originator of that theory, you know who you are).
One thing I notice w/concrete is that the floor is still relatively excited, not so with the SBs. Ultimately I used them as an easier way to find optimal speaker placement. I could just slide the whole unit about, as opposed to having to readjust the bloody spikes thru carpet umpteen times.
garyi,
I think Tim answered your question here:
topic
Posted on: 17 March 2002 by Mark Dunn
Hi all:
I totally agree with Mark and Mikes' energy loop observations above. I have DIY Credo plinths that follow this philosphy and they work well. However, being a cut price tweaker I recently tried Rubbermaid 28qt containers filled with 100lb of sand (each) and a 3/4" slab of marble. This was mainly to try and cure a very slight bass bloom as my floor is the suspended wooden type and the boards aren't as rigid as they could be.
The new stands gave a LOT more bass detail but the bass was very, very, very dry and so out of tune with everything else it was laughable. An outsider would probably not have realised it was the same system. It's amazing/alarming how such a relatively small set up item can make or break the whole 'music' thing. I'm now back with my original design.
Best Regards,
Mark Dunn
Posted on: 18 March 2002 by MarkEJ
quote:
Mark Dunn: ...the bass was very, very, very dry and so out of tune with everything else it was laughable.
Seems that mass usually isn't a good thing.
There appear to be several things about any supports which have arisen over time, emerging from the general gestault here, loosely:
1. Dealing with airborne vibrations (music hitting the kit) is nothing like as important as dealing with internally generated stuff, and providing something for it to heat up. That whole "isolation" thing is a bit of a red herring.
2. Glass has properties which obey only its own rules, which are hard to fathom, and often defy any logic derived from the behaviour of other materials.
3. The materials used in a successfully implemented design never sound as you would expect. Glass doesn't sound "glassy", metal doesn't sound "metallic", spikes don't sound "spikey" and wood doesn't sound (ahem...) "woody". If they do sound this way, there is an probably an issue with implementation, rather than choice of materials. Some of the lightest, hardest, most "aggressive" materials can combine to produce the softest, subtlest, warmest, mellowest "effects", although I supsect that this is simply how we interpret finally hearing something closer to how it was recorded.
4. Experimentation with supports should initially be done only with a source component, and a close to flawless one at that. A support which really works well acts like a lens, magnifying everything, and revealing any crap introduced upstream. Thus a good support under a preamp (for example) could easily sound worse, which can get confusing. As usual, "source first" is the way to go.
Best;
Mark
(an imperfect
forum environment is
better than none)
Posted on: 18 March 2002 by Top Cat
Great stuff, Mike. I've tried Soundbases under my Neats (Gravitas, with Petite III on top) and they do improve many things - basically, as you say, taking the speakers to the next level.
One thing to perhaps try, is finding two sets of the 'cute' dumpy Mana spikes - i.e. those which normally face up, and are in contact with the board or glass. Replace your existing speaker spikes with these, and then invert the speaker so that it is upside down. Then, place the board or glass upon the spikes (upside down also, so that the spikes touch the same surface of the board or glass that they will when you are finished) and tune the speaker spikes to the glass/board.
You'll find that this might present further gains to you - it's something I have done with my custom Gravitas stands, and I prefer it this way. Of course, you may find the regular spikes better, or perhaps your spike thread is incompatible with that of the Mana spikes, in which case I can't help.
Whatever, enjoy! Mana under the speakers is a positive move. Whether or not you like it under source and amps is another matter, but under speakers it seems to work universally.
TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."
Posted on: 18 March 2002 by Mike Sae
I've just spun some "problem" tracks (ie 'Better Things' by Massive Attack and Jill Scott's 'Honey Molasses') and bloody hell, the heinous room rattle is pretty much fixed (rattling ceiling, say, 75% quieter). Some of the problems I attributed to a crap room seems to have been be excess floorborne energy? Or maybe the SBs tamed the excess "bass rattle" freqs from the speakers? Huh.
quote:
1. Dealing with airborne vibrations (music hitting the kit) is nothing like as important as dealing with internally generated stuff, and providing something for it to heat up. That whole "isolation" thing is a bit of a red herring.
Agreed. To add, IME "isolation" isn't the issue- dissapation is. Eg. not preventing vibration, but inviting it with open arms, then kicking it out as fast as possible. Revolving door theory?
I'll shut my layman's pie-hole now.
quote:
One thing to perhaps try, is finding two sets of the 'cute' dumpy Mana spikes
I could actually do this, as I have a spare pair of Mystique plinths (don't ask). Now, I just need to put out a want ad for cute dumpy Mana spikes.
Seriously, is it the stubbiness of the spike that matters, not the fact that it's a "special Mana spike"?
This successful endevour has made me curious about this:
No, not Ultimatums, but Mana avec Neuance boards. I believe Chris Bell tried this?
Ferrousness isn't an issue, as the hi-fi shares space with a large assortment of weights and a bench press.
At any rate, I'll wait out the low CDN exchange rate before doing anything so drastic.
cheers,
Mike
Posted on: 18 March 2002 by plynnplynn
Internal or external excitation; weight and rigidity of the speaker; dissipation of unwanted energy or vibration; spikes; concrete blocks; expensive stands. I suspect that the answer for each system can only be found by experimentation. In my case I have very very heavy speakers (with spikes) and the best result was obtained by setting them onto concrete blocks which were separated from the wooden floor by felt. The blocks were surrounded by wood to match the speakers. Worth the experiment and a bit of fun for a few pounds. You might find your speakers sound better than on your expensive stands.
Posted on: 18 March 2002 by plynnplynn
Meant to say that Roy Gregory had something to say on this in latest Hi-Fi+ - Issue 16.
Posted on: 18 March 2002 by ejl
Good info. Mike. Since recently moving into a home with a suspended wood floor, I've been having a real problem getting the bass under control. It was interesting to hear that you've tried the concrete slabs and got about the same result with them that I have. I did notice that the slabs increased lower-mid-range detail, which confirmed my suspicion that the bass in my set up is totally smearing it over. But like you I ultimately ditched the slabs since they seemed to badly deaden the sound, especially at the bottom end.
Coughing up $540.00 for the SB2s I'd need for my 'Briks isn't easy without having a chance to hear them first (anyone with Mana in deep south Alabama?). So your (hopefully unbaised) information is appreciated.
Posted on: 18 March 2002 by Mike Sae
Thanks for the invite Vuk, but I live on the left coast. It would have been fun and instructive though, as my setup is like a baby version of yours. Plus the music would have been a blast.
ejl,
I know next to nothing wrt Mana, but as you may already know, you should be considering their purpose built Brik "Speaker Stand".
I agree, the price is hard to accept, and I would never have blind-bought a 500USD speaker support. Luckily, a friend sold me his 2nd hand pair (he upgraded from IBLs to NBLs) so I was able to try them out with lesser risk.
From my blue collar POV, the material value is scandalous (an argument done to death). Even though the things don't look like 500 bucks, I'm happy to report that I think they're worth the cost. The improvements wrought corresponds to their price.
PS I assure you I'm not biased, just amazed.
PPS From other's accounts, Neats and Briks respond particularly well to the treatment. Other speakers (SBL, Credo) have had mixed results. In fact, in one case the NBL proved too heavy for the SB2. Perhaps their effect on Naim speakers is mixed due to their built-in suspensions?
[This message was edited by Mike Sae on TUESDAY 19 March 2002 at 04:02.]
