Shopping for a new Turntable.

Posted by: Mike Sae on 28 February 2002

Hi all,

I'm ready to upgrade my plattenspieler. I currently run a faithful P3/P77 which has been rendered obselete due to accidental P9 exposure.

So far I've auditioned the Rega P25 and Clearaudio Champion.

Now, the Clearaudio was at a dealer with whom I have no relationship, so the session was with very unfamiliar electronics. We ran: Champion>Aurum Beta>Unknown silvery Preamp>Conrad Johnson tubey thing> Castle Severn.

The Champion seemed unable to hold a tune. Literally, the music's temporal structure was diffused, with no sense of forward motion. A collection of sounds just hanging around with nowhere to go. Wierd. I realize the system is mostly to blame, but if the Champion was truly great, it should have forced some of the music through all those tubes and expenso cables.
If source first really applies to all situations, this source sucks.

Back at my regular dealer for the P25, then. It was refreshing to be able to strut around the shop, taking stuff off the shelves at will. I'll never underestimate the value of a good dealer.

With the P25, I was expecting sort of a 2/3rds P9, or at least a big boost from the P3. The P25 was a big disappointment, though. There were improvements to be sure; it was smoother, cleaner and more refined, but I'm looking for more groove and raunch (I daresay punch and slam).

I put in a P2 (P3 unavailable) as a reference point, and while it was far harsher and unrefined, it somehow bettered the P25 in terms of bounce and PRaT(!). I get a feeling that i'm simply hearing the P2s colorations. Whatever, the P25 was just too reined in. The P25 is so popular in these parts, I knew there would be something wrong with it

I'll give the P25 another shot, just to be sure.

As far as I know, the only other good turntable in my price band in the Nottingham Interspace. There's no distributor in Canada so this is the least appealing option. The US guys suggested I call up the U.K. factory. Before I do this, has anyone here heard this thing? I'd be using my RB300. These guys seem to take the high-mass approach, but apparently the Interspace leaves the P25 in the dust. How? Does it excel in groove, dynamic swings, PRaT and whatnot?

Are there other TTs out there that might work in the P25 price range?
(I assure you, my eyes are always open for 2nd hand LP12/P9s)

What say you?

Longwindedly yours,

mike

[This message was edited by Mike Sae on FRIDAY 01 March 2002 at 07:01.]

Posted on: 28 February 2002 by Bob Edwards

Mike--

I'd wait for a used LP12 or P9 or Roksan Xerxes X or something similar. If you go the P25 route you'll be disappointed, not to mention at a dead end.

Heard one of the Nottingham table/arm combo's with a Lyra Lydian B. It sounded quite good--until I heard the LP12 next to it.

In the short term, you could put a better cartridge on the P3, which is quite good enough to take advantage.

Cheers,

Bob

Posted on: 01 March 2002 by Frank Abela

I guess there's the Gyro SE, although I'm not sure its PRAT is as good as a P3's.

FWIW I concur with your results on the Clearaudio.

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

Posted on: 01 March 2002 by Top Cat

...but Clearaudio decks need very very careful setup to get them to do 'the thing' - and I mean VERY careful. Perhaps the Champion is better, but the one up (the Evolution) is significantly better than the P9 or my old LP12/Aro/Lingo.

So, perhaps your dealer hadn't set it up optimally, or there was a system imbalance, or maybe the cartridge/bearing was needing run-in some more. Then again, maybe the Champion sucks, it's a possibility...

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Posted on: 01 March 2002 by Top Cat

Did you like any of the tables through the dealer's system? Maybe the problem was the dealer's eclectic system balance - after all, I've never heard either deck through tubes and the like.

Question: did the Champion seem to lack a bit of bass weight and drive? That was the impression I get of incorrectly set VTA on CLearaudio decks. Kinda hyper-detailed but a bit thin.

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Posted on: 01 March 2002 by Jonathan Gorse

Frank,

I'm astonished (as a fellow Gyro user) you feel a P3 has more prat than a Gyro. I realise the Gyro excels on dynamics and neutrality but I would have thought prat has more to do with accurate speed stability and effective damping of superfluous platter ringing causing smearing and overhang.

In this respect with its platter matching many of the physical properties of vinyl (enabling effective damping) and a good record clamp plus a sophisticated power supply and high quality swiss motor to provide excellent speed stability I would have expected a Gyro to demolish a P3 across the board (good though a P3 is at its price)!

I'm not having a go - merely curious. I chose a Gyro because to me it provided more lifelike reproduction than comparably priced alternatives due to audibly better engineering and attention to detail eg the arm mounting plate being uniquely machined to match the weight of the chosen arm to ensure precise subchassis balancing, the motor being fully decoupled from the plinth etc.

Jonathan

Posted on: 01 March 2002 by Rico

LP12. You're "getting" bounce and PRAT. The LP12 is a better long-term bet than the Roxy, you just can't go past it***.

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

** - unless you take a somewhat circuitous route thru well-hung, mana, 'briks etc.... and then get an LP12. You know it makes sense.

Posted on: 01 March 2002 by John C

I have a spacedeck/spacearm combo. It is much better than P25. It also sounds as good as an LP12/Ittok/Armageddon I recently heard.I will concede that the LP 12 is more romantic and less ruthlessly honest with the recording than the Notts. It has all the PRAT I need. I use a Dyna 10x4 but am not entirely happy with it.

The interspace has been upgraded recently with the better platter and seems to be a bargain. Consider Moerch tonearms with the Nottinghams, they are a very good match.

JohnI

Posted on: 01 March 2002 by Frank Abela

Jonathan,

When I made my comment it was in direct relation to price - a basic Gyro SE with wall-wart power supply and RB300 arm. In this guise, I don't think it has the same grip that the Rega decks have, though of course it annihilates the Regas for contrast (i.e. dynamics).

With a QC/QV, the Gyro is way superior to the P3/P25 of course, but now it's a lot more expensive. Add a decent arm, rather than the usual RB crap it gets saddled with, and the deck takes on a whole new dimension musically.

As to Notts Analague, I never got on with the Spacedeck finding it more coloured than the Gyro, with a mechanical character I dislike. The higher end NA decks don't seem to have this character.

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

Posted on: 01 March 2002 by Ron Toolsie

.... the Oracle!

Seriously, the first round earth system that had great PR&T that I heard was fronted with an Oracle turntable (Sumiko The Arm, Koetsu cartridge, Audio Research SP10 mk 2/D115 amps and Magneplanar 3 speakers comprised the remainder). If Oracle are still in production (and they were originally Canadian) this may be a sleeper to check out. This was also the turntable that made objective turntable reviews laughable when a well known reviewer proclaimed it to measure precisely 634 times better than the LP12 in vibration rejection. Which in HE-MAN terms is probably around 28 dB or so (I no longer have all numerical logs burnt into my memory).

Ron
Dum spiro audio
Dum audio vivo

Posted on: 01 March 2002 by Frank Abela

You're right, but the Mana Ref. table is as expensive as the original poster's whole budget for the deck...

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

Posted on: 01 March 2002 by Dan M

In the same price range as a P25 there's the
Teres table, which to my eye looks like it's
from the same school as the Nottingham 'tables.
It is a DIY project and getting an audition is
going to be tough however.

see http://www.teresaudio.com/product/index.html

Sorry, I can't comment on the sound since I have
only seen pictures (Listener magazine).

-Dan

Posted on: 01 March 2002 by Edwin

Check your email.

Posted on: 01 March 2002 by Mike Sae

quote:

TC said: Question: did the Champion seem to lack a bit of bass weight and drive? That was the impression I get of incorrectly set VTA on CLearaudio decks. Kinda hyper-detailed but a bit thin.

TC, I heard the Champion at an unfamiliar dealer.
It had plenty of bass, but little true weight and drive. The only way to be truly sure is to home dem, but for some reason dealers around here don't do that unless you've already "established a relationship" with them I don't doubt that the wacky system had a part to play, but if the Champion was truly an Asskicker(TM), it should have shown at least some PRaTty inclination in that fairly expensive setup. I was considering buying from this different dealer only if the thing knocked my socks off. I don't mean to badmouth Clearaudio, only the Champion After all, Lara runs a Clearaudio, and she's certainly an Asskicker(TM).

quote:
Frank said: I guess there's the Gyro SE, although I'm not sure its PRAT is as good as a P3's.

Coincedentally, there's a second hand AC Gyro SE that I was considering. However, your comment probably nixes that idea. At any rate, I was unsucessful in convincing myself that I liked its flashy looks. I'm sure the QC PS works wonders, but I'm hesitant to get into the Michell ladder, as it were. I'm glad you mentioned this.

quote:
Of Mana tables, Paul D said: Not if you get them both secondhand Frank , although I have no idea how easy it is to do this in Canada.

I've only seen 1 set of Canadian preowned Mana since 1998. This was last week, and I lost the bidding war for a pair of oversize Soundbases.

Ron, regarding the Canadian Oracle, dealers around here are sceptical about their continued existence, so noone carries them. As you probably already know, they've been quite spotty over the years. Besides, a brand new P9 2000 is only a few toonies short of an Oracle with its dedicated acryl stand! Nice to know there's a Canadian TT that'll do PRaT, though.

I'll give the P25 another chance, and may very well just sit tight and wait for that preowned P9 to drop from the sky...

Best,

Mike

PS thanks for the tip, Edwin!
PPS They also had a Project Perspective I wanted to try, but the guys lost the power supply (again).

[This message was edited by Mike Sae on SATURDAY 02 March 2002 at 04:02.]

Posted on: 02 March 2002 by Top Cat

FWIW, in some ways (factoring in the price) I prefer the P25 to the P9. The P9 has enhanced PRaT but I think the overall 'balance' of the P25 (i.e. pulling off everything it attempts to do and not attempting things it can't do, if you get mymeaning) is better.

The P9 is the better deck, no question, but I found it less balanced, although some may like its hairshirt timing and ruthless energy. I was a bit disappointed, having gone in expecting to come out with a P9 over an LP12/Aro/Armageddon, Xerxes, etc. In fact I ended up with the Evolution and haven't looked back...

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Posted on: 02 March 2002 by Mike Sae

TC,
I agree, the P25 is more balanced, which is my problem. To use use the "unit" measurements, I feel the P3 1 unit refinement, 2 units fun and the P25 is 2 units refinement, 1 unit fun. I want 3 fun, 2 refinement.
I'm going to give the P25 another chance. I guess I'm a nutty hair-shirt after all.

Edwin and Chris,
I've e-mailed, but for some reason there's a failure to delvier on my server. I'll keep trying. Murphy's Law.

PS reason for 4am post: have a G*ddamn cold, can't get to bed.

Posted on: 02 March 2002 by ejl

code:

 I've only seen 1 set of Canadian preowned Mana since 1998. This was last week, and I lost the bidding war for a pair of oversize Soundbases.

I was bidding on these same bases -- didn't get them either. I think they wound up selling at close to retail price. Bummer.

Posted on: 04 March 2002 by Rico

quote:
I want 3 fun, 2 refinement.

For the benefit of the crowd, again: Get thee an LP12!

You will not make yourself like a P25 and live with it on this basis.

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

Posted on: 04 March 2002 by John

Mike:

Be patient and find a used P9. With the new P9 out there should be some good deals around. I am very happy with mine and recently did the OriginLive counterweight and internal rewire upgrades.

John