The music industry does it again...
Posted by: Kevin-W on 24 July 2008
...apparently with the government's collusion.
Imagine where Tesco or John Lewis or Amazon or Naim would be if they treated their customers with the contempt that the record industry does. From reports in the media earlier today, it seems as if the record industry has got its way (or a bit of its way) by requesting that ISPs write to the "most prolific downloaders" warning them that their activities are being monitored.
This is outrageous. First of all there are privacy issues. We pay our ISPs to transmit information, not to report our activities to special interest groups. The "Top Six" (whowever they are) ISPs are treading on dangerous ground, and they risk a huge backlash.
And, with the feebleness typical of the current administration, the government appears to have rolled over in the wake of the BPI's special pleading and has "brokered" this deal.
A bloated record industry run by people too foolish to realise that the writing was on the wall for their business model 10 years ago (and which adopted a policy of hiding its head in the sand and then pursuing single mothers and children through the courts) is now stooping to an all-time low - attempting to criminalise its own customers. This is beyond satire.
At the very time when the record industry needs to be making friends, the BPI and co decide to go around throwing their weight about and generally pissing people off. As a well-known idiot who writes for the Daily Mail would say, "You couldn't make it up".
Or am I over-reacting?
Discuss.
Posted on: 24 July 2008 by BigH47
quote:
Or am I over-reacting?
Probably not, but who is going to tell them you? me? if the government colludes then there's nowt we can do.
Unless some courageous campaigner takes and wins a privacy infringing issue through the courts, then nothing will change.
There is no body/group that has the where with all to go against it.
Perhaps one day the record industry will self implode and the musicians will take over the asylum.
Posted on: 24 July 2008 by Ewan Aye
I had a phone call at work following two letters from the PRS. As usual, threats, much the same as the BBC announcements that anyone watching without a licence will be caught and dealt with - just a matter of time. Threats. Instead of; "Do you know that you need a licence and you can obtain it here?" No, none of that, just; "We'll catch you, you bastard, and we'll make you very sorry".
I told the woman on the phone that I had indeed received her threatening letters and as a result am now working in total silence as I am not going to risk having a radio on. She started to tell me that it would be okay if it was just me listening to a radio, but I stopped her and said that after the threatening letters I just wasn't able to take the risk, and that I thought the institution she worked for was intimidating, threatening and assumed everyone a criminal until proved innocent and that she should be ashamed to work for them. She said the letters shouldn't be threatening, but I referred her to them and asked if they did not appear to her to be making threats? She stuttered a bit, said she hadn't personally read them, and offered to put me onto her manager, but I declined and repeated that I had accepted that I shall work in silence in future and that her efforts had succeeded in creating a silent environment.
Then I hung up.
I really must say that the way this country operates, and the overall approach to the public being of contempt, the electricity, water, gas companies, together with the BBC, PRS and all the rest of them can shove it, because very soon I'll be leaving this country, and I won't be coming back. It's out of control, and it's just plain nasty.
Yes, I'm having a rant, but I'm so sick of it all and it makes me so fucking angry.
I do accept that downloading music is theft, but there are better ways to deal with it - like making people want to buy it. They took away the 12" artwork, they made us have to buy plastic jewel cases with a slip of paper inside. They made it no different to downloading a faceless track from the internet. They promoted music as primarily TV talent show Karaoke. They took it all away from us.
Whose fucking fault is it? Ours?
Posted on: 24 July 2008 by Jono 13
Ewan,
Some friends sold their TV and now just have a radio and CD player. They get semi-regular challenges about a TV licence and always respond with a hearty "Bugger off, and if you don't believe me then pop round and check-out the lack of aerial".
Anyway back on track look at how well BT handled the whole Phorm spyware thing. It just about boiled down to "if you don't like it then go elsewhere and we are not going to abide by the law." Which was nice.
The laws about private information and data sharing are quite clear, but flouted by any big business that finds them inconvienent. Just don't share and don't worry.
Jono
Posted on: 24 July 2008 by Guido Fawkes
Unscrupulous councils used to sell the electoral register with your details on it - that has been stopped. No idea if my letters contributed, but I did get a letter from David Blunkett (or at least his name was the bottom of it).
ISPs want to sell information about what you do an the web to any Thomas, Richard or Harold who gives them some money. I think that is disgusting - you should be asked first. I'm not sure that I don't own my personal data and if anybody should profit from its sale then it should be me.
Big record companies are a joke - instead of helping artists create music, they just see $ or £ signs - it's all they're good for. Small independent labels are much better - I mean real independents, not Stiff and Factory and that lot.
I'd like to see the same privacy laws as they have in Germany and Luxembourg implemented in the UK. The laws in Luxembourg regarding privacy should be the norm, not the exception.
quote:
I really must say that the way this country operates, and the overall approach to the public being of contempt, the electricity, water, gas companies, together with the BBC, PRS and all the rest of them can shove it, because very soon I'll be leaving this country, and I won't be coming back. It's out of control, and it's just plain nasty.
I'd love to do likewise, but family ties dictate otherwise. There are a lot of good honest people here, but big business and the Government stink. I have lived abroad in Scandinavia and have to say that I found it much more pleasant than here in terms of respect for people, but I did miss the cricket.
ATB Rotf
Posted on: 24 July 2008 by JamieL
ArticleThe six ISP's who are bowing to the bullying of the music industry are:
BT
Virgin Media
Orange
Tiscali
Sky
Carphone Warehouse
BT, Virgin and Tiscali are already listed under the Azerus bad ISP's wiki as limiting bandwidth or other practices to prevent bit torrent use.
Azerus wikiSimply another reason to be carefull about who you choose as your ISP, provided you have a cjoice in your area, which I know everyone does not.
I pay a little more for my ISP, but get what I want from a company that seems to care about their services to the customer, rather than being part of another corporate cartel.
There are perfectly legal uses for P2P/bit torrent programmes, some bands now use this as a means to distribute their music, such as the recent NIN releases.
Other bands use the distribution of some material through bit torrent, with rules about what they support/tolerate on their websites, as a means of publicity as they are no currently considered suitable for the mainstream media.
Some artists just trust their audience to support them and respect that some material circulates outside their official releases.
I must add that I do not support those who distribute material that can easily be bought, and this is what is causing losses to artists incomes.
Jamie
Posted on: 24 July 2008 by Steve2701
.
Posted on: 24 July 2008 by Steve2701
quote:
Originally posted by Steve2701:
quote:
I really must say that the way this country operates, and the overall approach to the public being of contempt, the electricity, water, gas companies, together with the BBC, PRS and all the rest of them can shove it, because very soon I'll be leaving this country, and I won't be coming back. It's out of control, and it's just plain nasty.
With you 100% and will be doing exactly the same.
A member of the PRS turned up at the unit next door to mine - walked in - without a warrant -
& announced that the owners would be done for listening to the radio. Furthermore he would be done for the previous 5 - 10 years as well. Long story short £650 quid later they had 'done a good deal' for him and only done him for the last 5 years...
A private unit, where no public are allowed on a private estate. Not a shop - a manufacturing unit with a sole proprieter and a single employee. How heavy handed do they want to be?
Me - like you I'm in silence and it will stay that way -I aint paying to listen to my music multiple times - no way. Talk about daylight robbery. I get regular threatening letters and the phone calls - even though I'm on phone preference.... but that doesn't apply to them apparently.
Have to say it truly annoys me and makes me very angry that I cant listen to music I have already paid for in my own private property just in case a postman or any other un-invited person walks in and happens to hear my music, because that makes it a public performance so they say.
If they call you on the phone and hear music or radio heaven help you - your done.
Posted on: 24 July 2008 by BigH47
Would someone care to explain where the ISP starts or exactly what it is?
Most companies say you need a BT line does that mean BT has that knowledge regardless of the name of the ISP?
Posted on: 24 July 2008 by BigH47
quote:
I get regular threatening letters and the phone calls - even though I'm on phone preference.... but that doesn't apply to them apparently.
Keep reporting
THEM .
Posted on: 24 July 2008 by JamieL
quote:
Originally posted by BigH47:
Would someone care to explain where the ISP starts or exactly what it is?
Most companies say you need a BT line does that mean BT has that knowledge regardless of the name of the ISP?
My ISP is connected to me by a BT line, but monitoring, or lack of it is done through the servers of the ISP.
This means that BT do not have control over what the contract between you and the ISP deals with.
This is a bit line the deal between Network Rail (or whatever they are currently called) and companies like Virgin. The rails are there for the trains to run on, and the train companies pay them to use them, but whether Virgin offer buffet, 1st Class, or other services is down to them.
The ISP is the company who provide the computer (server) that connects you, through your phone line to the rest of the net, what they offer is independent of the line that connects you to them (although that can cause limitations if you are a long way away from your phone exchange).
Hope that makes sense.
I do know that BT complained to my previous ISP that I did a lot of uploading, and my ISP said 'So what, we don't limit our users' and BT had no comeback.
I changed ISP recently as I could get a very good service from a new ISP that suited my needs more, and not because I felt that my previous ISP were not fulfilling their commitments.
Jamie
Posted on: 24 July 2008 by Guido Fawkes
quote:
Most companies say you need a BT line does that mean BT has that knowledge regardless of the name of the ISP?
Possibly it could, but it doesn't.
An ISP starts from the telephone exchange - a unit called a DSLAM (Digital subscriber line access multiplexer). You connect to this using ADSL across your telephone line. You have a splitter so the line can support telephone calls and IP traffic.
BT used to control this, but now it is an independent subsidiary called OpenReach so that BT has no advantage over other ISPs.
Once you hit the DSLAM your connection goes across a circuit to the ISP with lots of other connections.
The ISP will hold your account details and give you your IP address - so it is easy for the ISP to know where you are going. Software like SurfControl or Websense can do this - some UK companies use this same software to check employee behaviour (such practice is illegal in Germany).
In theory the telephone company could snoop the line and see what was going to your telephone number, but they don't because there is no value in it and I think it is illegal.
So BT facilitates your connection to your ISP.
You could use another phone company or a cable modem or 3G access - so it doesn't have to be BT.
Still once you are on the big bad Internet finding out where you are going and what you are doing is not rocket science. An easy way is a honeypot server. I put up server and offer free Naim kit - bet you have a look at it
- now I know your IP address and that you have a particular interest - I can look up your IP address in
whois and learn the name of your ISP. And on it goes ...
As Frank Zappa once said
it's a great time to be alive, then again he also said
brown shoes don't make it.
ATB Rotf
Posted on: 24 July 2008 by BigH47
Thanks great explanations guys. I should have known most of that but so much has changed in the 6 years since I was a BT employee.
Posted on: 24 July 2008 by OscillateWildly
Home taping is killing music!
Buying a load of pirate tapes in Singapore in the early 80s and taping radio shows helped as a filter. I knew the sound quality was less than LP, especially the pirate tapes, but I couldn't afford to buy the official version of everything I wanted to check out. After determining the artists that passed muster, I purchased the LPs. For many bands it wasn't a single LP, but saving for back catalogue, future releases and concerts.
Having the beginnings of a collection led to mix tapes. These tapes were swapped with friends, each of us trying to outdo the others. We all heard new bands, which led to new purchases.
The early stages of CD were more marketing than substance. The hard done to record companies cottoned on to the idea of people rebuying their collections; why sell it once when you can sell it again. The mantra being digital equals quality. The problem for the smug companies being digital is 1s and 0s, and now we can transfer and arrange those with ease. After years of one track albums at rip off prices, just that one track can be downloaded, leaving the rest to rot. Why even pay for that one track when we can get it for free? After all digital is digital, and, as you said, that's perfect. No need to buy the physical if we already have the best. How much business are ISPs prepared to lose for record companies? Unofficial downloading will survive.
I don't download, stick to the radio, but if I did, the only reason to buy the official would be if I got something extra, some added value. As for the artists, the record companies screw them as well.
The PRS - Radio and workplace music advertises their artists. It is they who should pay the fee; fixed, we don't want any Payolla. Let them cut off their nose.
PRS Personal Grudge - Always addressed me as Ms, despite all my correspondence giving Mr as my title.
Cheers,
OW
Posted on: 24 July 2008 by Mark Dunn
Hi all,
As a Brit living in the U.S. (20 years now) I'm confused. Who or what is the PRS and what's the deal about not listening to the radio when someone else could hear it?
Best Regards,
Mark Dunn
Posted on: 24 July 2008 by u5227470736789439
Performing Right Society.
It is supposed to return to the performers and composers an income from public performance and replay of music.
I do suspect that once they have managed the trick of silencing the workplace, they will more or less destroy pop music as such. The output of such as Virgin Radio is so lacking in challenge that it is perfect as the background hum of work, but without this sort of distribution I am sure the "artists" responsible for the music will find themselves without a platform.
The only reason a person might [I would not] buy the official recording is that it has been hammered into you head by hearing five time in the course of a day, every day for a month!
On the other hand I think some background music does no harm in the workplace.
The truth of this is shown by the study that caused the BBC to broadcast music specifically tailored for the factory environment under the title "Music while you work" with the title theme called "Calling all workers" by Eric Coates!
I think this will be an example of the music industry shooting itself in the foot, but that will not stop it happening.
George
Posted on: 24 July 2008 by Diccus62
Piracy = Theft simple as in my book. Whether the artist is on a big label or a small label. Whether it is Elton John that is being illegally downloaded or an emerging artist struggling to make a crust it is the same difference. Hey, if someone started taking money out of my pay packet I wouldn't be chuffed. If someone stole my car would I see it as 'car sharing' nah.
I am no angel here and own many a bootleg and did a lot of live taping when I was younger. I remember Bruce Springsteen tolerated his gig's being taped. I once asked him to sign a copy of one of his 'Boot's' and he politely said 'hey man I don't sign those' so I've got a nice signed copy of 'Darkness' instead. I guess some artists are more tolerant of their gigs being taped as the people doing so I would imagine have many of the genuine releases anyway and it keeps the obsessed obsessed. Still theft though unless you have permission.
Mind if anyone wants a tape of me singing and clapping to a version of 'Out in the Street' by Bruce just let me know and you can have it copyright free. Just ask Jet Johnson, he'll vouch for the quality. Excellent for keeping the Bairns off the fire.
I bet a lot of people are quaking in their boots fearful of a letter dropping menacingly from their letterbox
Regards
Diccus
Posted on: 25 July 2008 by Rockingdoc
If it means I don't have to listen to my dentist's awful taste in music any more, I'm quite relieved.
Posted on: 25 July 2008 by Ewan Aye
Diccus.
I don't think anyone here feels that illegal copying is okay, and I for one take a dim view of it. If I'm given a copy and I like the content, I buy it. If not, I dump it.
Ambient music is good for me to work to. I wonder if I could find an ambient music generator that could produce drone music for me to work to. That way I could have something to listen to during the day.
Okay, take this scenario: There you are at home watching the TV and someone calls round. Are you on the wrong side of the law for that someone being able to hear the TV? What if that visitor is an inspector from the PRS? Does that mean the PRS can send someone round to each house and if they don't turn off the TV before they open the door, they're nicked? What if they can hear the TV from outside the living room window?
We need to deluge the PRS with reports of passing a house and hearing music from inside (without a specific address) and hearing music from passing cars, but without the reg no. Just flood them day and night with reports that can't act on - until the stupid petty little shits give up.
Oh...and what is the definition of "a performance"? Could that "performance" be just voices? Music doesn't need instruments, it can be purely vocal. When is a performance music? So...what about hearing a couple of people talking to each other in a restaurant or pub? Could that be defined as a performance? Are the PRS going to nick people for talking in public?
Posted on: 25 July 2008 by Steve2701
Well here's a turn up for the book.
I have just had yet another phone call from the PRS and, shall we say, after reading and contributing to this yesterday I was a little bit 'fired up'
''I'm just following up on some letters we have sent you recently''
Yes - yet again you are - as you can hear - I'm sat here in silence...
When are you going to stop sending those threatening letters and calling me? I am getting rather fed up and angry about it all.
''Why''
Well can you please explain to me - in terms that I will understand - why, when I own a building, only me, my wife and her brother work here, with no public access, we should have to pay yet more to listen to music that we have already paid to listen to?
''Oh''
''Actually sir, you are perfectly ok to listen in that case - you are basically a family unit in a private place, so you are well within your rights to listen. We will write to you shortly and confirm this - and that will put an end to the letters and phone calls.''
So - should I dare to hold my breath? I realise that we wont be able to have the windows open etc - but it might just be a result.
If you check their website no mention is made of anything like this <wonders why rolleyes smiley> indeed - if you can even begin to understand their site you are doing well.
I'm not convinced yet.
Posted on: 25 July 2008 by Steve2701
.
Posted on: 25 July 2008 by Steve2701
quote:
Okay, take this scenario: There you are at home watching the TV and someone calls round. Are you on the wrong side of the law for that someone being able to hear the TV? What if that visitor is an inspector from the PRS? Does that mean the PRS can send someone round to each house and if they don't turn off the TV before they open the door, they're nicked? What if they can hear the TV from outside the living room window?
We need to deluge the PRS with reports of passing a house and hearing music from inside (without a specific address) and hearing music from passing cars, but without the reg no. Just flood them day and night with reports that can't act on - until the stupid petty little shits give up.
I think it's just great, that once again, we are being put under immense pressure to conform and prove our innocence of a crime (yes - we are being criminalised yet again folks - for listening to music for heavens sake!!) that is a total mickey take. It is stated that the PRS is a non profit making organisation - ok, but just what % goes to each artist out there and who says who gets what. Nowt morw than yet another official quango as far as I can tell.
Posted on: 25 July 2008 by Frank Abela
Hmmm, much to think on here.
Making copies is theft in the sense that it doesn't keep the money-go-round spinning for the music industry which adversely affects struggling artists, which affects the quality and variety of music I can lay my hands on.
Then again, half of the TV I watch is from bit torrents because the best stuff is reserved for pay-TV which I object to since I have already paid a license. Or if it isn't on pay-TV it's on Freeview or Freesat to induce me to pay for a new tuner - so sod them, I'll bit torrent those TV series down since I OUGHT to have had access to them when broadcast in the first place! But it's still not right is it?
Hmm, much to think on...
Posted on: 25 July 2008 by u5227470736789439
Surely if closing down radio in the work place is achieved, and I don't see most employers stumping up for a PRS licence, then the commercial stations [such as Virgin, nationally, and the many local commercial stations] will inevitably loose advertising revenue, and in some cases at least close down.
Thus the airtime payments that get to the artists will actually decrease over time.
I don't think the PRS position has been thought through ...
___________
On illegal copying, it seems to me that illegal really is illegal, and unless there is some tax on the tapes and blank CDs as exists in some countries to account for it legally, then there is nothing to be done about it except pursue those who do it and break the law.
Of course the tax on blank recording media cannot work for the file-sharing situation, so probably there is no solution apart from the pursuit and prosecution of those who do it.
As with the changes in technology used for breeching copyright, so necessarily will the methods of gather the evidence for prosecution also have to change. It seems to me no a big problem that those who use the Internet should be reported for potentially illegal activities by the ISPs.
On the other hand, as I explain below, there is a strong case for changing the law in my opinion.
____________
I used to have to deal with the PRS when I was the orchestral librarian for an amateur band, which used to exclusively play modern music. It was an absolute nightmare getting permission to perform music that was still in copyright.
The orchestra foundered because though we had a rehearsal room, and concert room for nothing due to considerable generosity [even the heat and light still cost the owner], we could not get enough from ticket sales to cover the copyright fees!
Then came the prospect of having the period of copyright being extended to 75 years, till the music comes into the public domain.
I think it is interesting to note that the greatest music came into being before copyright existed! Perhaps keeping composers poor allowed a freedom from the pressures of commercialism, which is mostly a question of keeping shareholders - not musicians and composers, after all - in a tidy living.
I am of the view that perhaps copyright should be completely overhauled, and in many ways we should revert to the old way of controlling performances alone, and forget about trying to control reproduction, as this aspect has never grossed the majority of recorded artists very much at all. Musos still tend to be generally not well off, apart from a tiny number of famous cases. McCartney and von Karajan being two prime examples who made fortunes from the recording industry, among the thousands who did and do not.
ATB from George
Posted on: 25 July 2008 by Ewan Aye
I've just sent the PRS this mail from their website. I of course didn't give away my identity:
--------------------------------------------------
Dear Sirs
I need to report a criminal offence.
A few minutes ago a car passed by my office and I could hear music coming from the car. I think there may have been a passenger in there too, so it’s illegal both playing music to a passenger and the general public who were walking down the street. Don’t worry, I phoned 999 and reported the incident and have referred them to you.
Hang on…..
I’ve just heard two people talking out there in the street and…no, that’s not music is it…no wait, it’s performing of any type isn’t it! I’ll call the police again immediately. Can’t have people broadcasting their voices. That’s illegal.
I’ll be sure to tell your staff all about this when they call me next to threaten me with listening to something.
I hope you’ve talked to the phone companies too. People phoning up unannounced and imposing their voices on us, they’ll need a licence for that, and I suppose if what they say is scripted, then that’s a performance isn’t it, and using the telephone is a form of broadcasting. So I’ll let you know when that happens next, I’ll tell your staff when they call me….hey..hang on. That’s you. You’re in violation of your own rules! I’m phoning 999 right now and refer them to you.
Can’t be too careful anymore. I’ll tell the police when they come round that they mustn’t use their radios, because that would be against the law.
Am I allowed to speak to them? You know, actually use my voice in my own premises? I’ll have to look into that and read your rules.
I can hear traffic noise outside right now. I wonder how you are going to deal with that one? I heard someone say that the sound of a 2 stroke petrol engine is music to their ears. That’s illegal isn’t it.
-------------------------------------------------
I'll keep sending them crap, because it seems that is all they understand.
Can't wait for their next phone call. It's been a few days so it must be soon.
Posted on: 25 July 2008 by Steve2701
My neighbour had a good question for them :-
We fitted a large conservatory two years ago, can they now go to the folk who paid for it and say - ok - your enjoying it now, but how many other friends have been enjoying it as well for the last two years (ie dinner parties, cups of tea etc) and can we have 7p per day per person please?
Naim could very well ask the same for all of you who have a group of friends around - after all only you purchased the equipment, why should they let everyone else have a listen as well?
The logic is the same as far as I am concerned.
To finally top the day - I got back to work some 2 hours after the call from the PRS to find a large yellow post it note on my office.
PHONE HEALTH AND SAFETY - THEY WANT TO KNOW WHAT DATE IS ON EVERY PLUG SOCKET IN THE PROPERTY.
No, it isnt a joke - they have actually called and asked that question. I give up.
Just when did copetence, comprehension and common sense finally get booted out of the UK to be replaced with this nannying and just so much legislation? Why?
As for the electrics - I have a certificate saying that the entire system was checked in October last year when a complete new 3 phase was fitted.
Now I have to pay someone every twelve months to come in and check everything is still ok with the hard wiring and then pay someone else to check every other piece of equipment that is then to be plugged in.
Anyone want to own their own company?
You need a sanity check before you start for certain.
