The music industry does it again...
Posted by: Kevin-W on 24 July 2008
...apparently with the government's collusion.
Imagine where Tesco or John Lewis or Amazon or Naim would be if they treated their customers with the contempt that the record industry does. From reports in the media earlier today, it seems as if the record industry has got its way (or a bit of its way) by requesting that ISPs write to the "most prolific downloaders" warning them that their activities are being monitored.
This is outrageous. First of all there are privacy issues. We pay our ISPs to transmit information, not to report our activities to special interest groups. The "Top Six" (whowever they are) ISPs are treading on dangerous ground, and they risk a huge backlash.
And, with the feebleness typical of the current administration, the government appears to have rolled over in the wake of the BPI's special pleading and has "brokered" this deal.
A bloated record industry run by people too foolish to realise that the writing was on the wall for their business model 10 years ago (and which adopted a policy of hiding its head in the sand and then pursuing single mothers and children through the courts) is now stooping to an all-time low - attempting to criminalise its own customers. This is beyond satire.
At the very time when the record industry needs to be making friends, the BPI and co decide to go around throwing their weight about and generally pissing people off. As a well-known idiot who writes for the Daily Mail would say, "You couldn't make it up".
Or am I over-reacting?
Discuss.
Imagine where Tesco or John Lewis or Amazon or Naim would be if they treated their customers with the contempt that the record industry does. From reports in the media earlier today, it seems as if the record industry has got its way (or a bit of its way) by requesting that ISPs write to the "most prolific downloaders" warning them that their activities are being monitored.
This is outrageous. First of all there are privacy issues. We pay our ISPs to transmit information, not to report our activities to special interest groups. The "Top Six" (whowever they are) ISPs are treading on dangerous ground, and they risk a huge backlash.
And, with the feebleness typical of the current administration, the government appears to have rolled over in the wake of the BPI's special pleading and has "brokered" this deal.
A bloated record industry run by people too foolish to realise that the writing was on the wall for their business model 10 years ago (and which adopted a policy of hiding its head in the sand and then pursuing single mothers and children through the courts) is now stooping to an all-time low - attempting to criminalise its own customers. This is beyond satire.
At the very time when the record industry needs to be making friends, the BPI and co decide to go around throwing their weight about and generally pissing people off. As a well-known idiot who writes for the Daily Mail would say, "You couldn't make it up".
Or am I over-reacting?
Discuss.
Posted on: 25 July 2008 by Guido Fawkes
quote:Naim could very well ask the same for all of you who have a group of friends around - after all only you purchased the equipment, why should they let everyone else have a listen as well?
Surely this is not the same - you are the owner of the Naim kit. You are not the owner of the music - you own the CD and the right to play the music on it.
Nonetheless, I detest the PRS as much as the next sane man - and many of the rules are just plain daft. The message about your electrics is just a jobsworth. I agree with your sentiments.
Posted on: 25 July 2008 by u5227470736789439
You need a sanity dneck to live in the UK! Anyone who can afford to get out should leave.
Leave it to Mr Brown and his Labour voting incomers. [Not the Polish who see through him].
George
Leave it to Mr Brown and his Labour voting incomers. [Not the Polish who see through him].
George
Posted on: 25 July 2008 by u5227470736789439
My plan is merely to retire to that unfashionable haven of civilisatin that is Poland!
That gives me eighteen years to learn the language!
George
That gives me eighteen years to learn the language!
George
Posted on: 25 July 2008 by JamieL
Demon Baby on the death of 'Oink'
I felt it was time to post his link again, it is vitriolic but also considered and honest, by the designer who works with NIN. (I hope that is not a non sequitur)
It is long but fair article and well worth the read. Make a cup of tea, or coffee, and sit down for 10 minutes, it is well worth it.
It might have preached to the already converted in my case, OK I accept bias, but give it a read.
Also keep buying music, tickets, T-shirts, and also download all that the artist is happy for you to get (free or otherwise).
The BPI and RIAA do not speak for every recording artist, and some (many) find their methods abhorrent.
Jamie
I felt it was time to post his link again, it is vitriolic but also considered and honest, by the designer who works with NIN. (I hope that is not a non sequitur)
It is long but fair article and well worth the read. Make a cup of tea, or coffee, and sit down for 10 minutes, it is well worth it.
It might have preached to the already converted in my case, OK I accept bias, but give it a read.
Also keep buying music, tickets, T-shirts, and also download all that the artist is happy for you to get (free or otherwise).
The BPI and RIAA do not speak for every recording artist, and some (many) find their methods abhorrent.
Jamie
Posted on: 25 July 2008 by Ewan Aye
quote:Originally posted by ROTF:quote:Naim could very well ask the same for all of you who have a group of friends around - after all only you purchased the equipment, why should they let everyone else have a listen as well?
Surely this is not the same - you are the owner of the Naim kit. You are not the owner of the music - you own the CD and the right to play the music on it.
Isn't the point: it's illegal to have a bunch of friends round for a listen? If you bought the CD yourself, you can't even say to your wife "This is a great album, listen to this". I presume she needs to buy her own copy.
I also presume the same applies to hi-fi dealers wanting to demonstrate equipment. They can't do it. If anyone brings in an LP or CD to listen to, the dealer should remove all other people from the shop, including themselves.
Posted on: 25 July 2008 by droodzilla
Theft is theft - absolutely.
But, practically speaking, the digital genie is out of the bottle. Enforcement *may* be possible, but the measures needed are likely to hack off law abiding citizens, thereby sacrificing more than they gain. A new business model is needed, it's as simple as that - although designing and implementing the model will be no simple matter.
The underlying problem, in my view, is that large parts of the music industry do not value creativity and talent, and that this attitude of contempt towards art has proved to be infectious. As you sow, so shall you reap, and all that.
Nigel
But, practically speaking, the digital genie is out of the bottle. Enforcement *may* be possible, but the measures needed are likely to hack off law abiding citizens, thereby sacrificing more than they gain. A new business model is needed, it's as simple as that - although designing and implementing the model will be no simple matter.
The underlying problem, in my view, is that large parts of the music industry do not value creativity and talent, and that this attitude of contempt towards art has proved to be infectious. As you sow, so shall you reap, and all that.
Nigel
Posted on: 25 July 2008 by OscillateWildly
Steve2701,
Health and Safety
The local paper has just reported that, on the grounds of health and safety, the Council has knocked over the gravestones deemed unsafe. Meanwhile at the dump, now Refuse and Recycle Centre, they have changed the system from throw items into collection pit, to climb slippery metal steps and throw into industrial skip/shipping container.
Respect and common sense on vacation.
Sorry to sidetrack.
Cheers,
OW
Health and Safety
The local paper has just reported that, on the grounds of health and safety, the Council has knocked over the gravestones deemed unsafe. Meanwhile at the dump, now Refuse and Recycle Centre, they have changed the system from throw items into collection pit, to climb slippery metal steps and throw into industrial skip/shipping container.
Respect and common sense on vacation.
Sorry to sidetrack.
Cheers,
OW
Posted on: 25 July 2008 by Mark Dunn
Hi all,
OK, thanks for the explanation of the PRS. I can barely believe this crap. Not playing a radio if someone else might hear it? Time for a revolution.
With regards to copying music that you have paid for (as opposed to obtained illegally), I was lucky enough during my recent MBA courses to be taught by an economics professor named Stan Liebowitz who, in 1985 published a seminal paper titled 'Indirect Appropriation' in which he outlines how 'art' producers and the companies that represent them can be, and generally are, fairly compensated for their output even if someone who has paid for a performance makes a copy, say for their car. Indirect Appropriation certainly has its limits but it's an interesting concept that has been overwhelmingly embraced by economists worldwide.
Professor Liebowitz's paper is not available on the internet (as he's fiercely protective of his copyright) but if anyone has access to Lexus-Nexus or the like you should be able to find it. Most places of higher education subscribe to such services.
Best Regards,
Mark Dunn
OK, thanks for the explanation of the PRS. I can barely believe this crap. Not playing a radio if someone else might hear it? Time for a revolution.
With regards to copying music that you have paid for (as opposed to obtained illegally), I was lucky enough during my recent MBA courses to be taught by an economics professor named Stan Liebowitz who, in 1985 published a seminal paper titled 'Indirect Appropriation' in which he outlines how 'art' producers and the companies that represent them can be, and generally are, fairly compensated for their output even if someone who has paid for a performance makes a copy, say for their car. Indirect Appropriation certainly has its limits but it's an interesting concept that has been overwhelmingly embraced by economists worldwide.
Professor Liebowitz's paper is not available on the internet (as he's fiercely protective of his copyright) but if anyone has access to Lexus-Nexus or the like you should be able to find it. Most places of higher education subscribe to such services.
Best Regards,
Mark Dunn
Posted on: 27 July 2008 by djftw
quote:Isn't the point: it's illegal to have a bunch of friends round for a listen? If you bought the CD yourself, you can't even say to your wife "This is a great album, listen to this". I presume she needs to buy her own copy.
Thank God this is not yet the case, the "personal use" you entitled to put your CDs, LPs, DVDs etc. does cover your family and friends listening to them in your home. However, if your home is open to the general public, or you are in the habit of charging people admission you might be in trouble! There is also a piece of jurisprudence that dates back to record companies' attempts to make people pay for taping their LPs to play in the car! Personal use does cover making duplicates for your own use, so ripping to your iPod or making compilations to play in the car is fine, provided you are only using one copy at once. Technically, if you are listening to an album on your iPod, and your other half or one of your offspring puts the same album on at home you are breaking the law!
quote:I also presume the same applies to hi-fi dealers wanting to demonstrate equipment. They can't do it. If anyone brings in an LP or CD to listen to, the dealer should remove all other people from the shop, including themselves.
This is indeed the case, all hi-fi dealers must have PRS licenses if they wish to demonstrate their wares, and IME do.
Posted on: 27 July 2008 by Derek Wright
The next logical step re copyright is to forbid the sale or handing on of recorded media regardless of the fact that the item was legitimately purchased in the first place.
Incidentally authors have long been dismayed by the concept of secondhand bookshops as they lose out totally on the sale.
Incidentally authors have long been dismayed by the concept of secondhand bookshops as they lose out totally on the sale.
Posted on: 27 July 2008 by djftw
quote:Originally posted by Derek Wright:
Incidentally authors have long been dismayed by the concept of secondhand bookshops as they lose out totally on the sale.
Can't imagine that they're that happy about public libraries then!
Posted on: 27 July 2008 by Derek Wright
Authors get a payment based on the number of times their books have been borrowed from the library.
Google on Public Lending
also
see
Google on Public Lending
also
see
Posted on: 27 July 2008 by Stephen Tate
Could this mean an analogue tape revival 
Posted on: 28 July 2008 by Ewan Aye
People will stop listening to music at work, and as most only watch the TV in the evenings I guess that a large audience will simply not hear any new music any more. Sales will drop and then the music industry will whine some more about the decline of bought music.
Like the water companies announcement last week, reduction in revenue due to people having to be careful with consumption has now to be compensated by increased prices.
We'll soon be looking at 10p/litre water from the tap and £20 cd's.
Like the water companies announcement last week, reduction in revenue due to people having to be careful with consumption has now to be compensated by increased prices.
We'll soon be looking at 10p/litre water from the tap and £20 cd's.
Posted on: 28 July 2008 by Stephen Tate
There is one thing that the music industry can do nothing about-and that is people sharing music.
Where there is a will there is a way and they know it.
If they want to drive the music scene under ground then so be it, they will be the ones that suffer.
The dance scene is a great example!
What they need to do is offer proper value for money then it would'nt be in this mess to begin with.
The CD is simply crap, naim build superb cd players and all credit to them and cds sound great on them but as a pratical format it is flawed in everyway.
Steve
Where there is a will there is a way and they know it.
If they want to drive the music scene under ground then so be it, they will be the ones that suffer.
The dance scene is a great example!
What they need to do is offer proper value for money then it would'nt be in this mess to begin with.
The CD is simply crap, naim build superb cd players and all credit to them and cds sound great on them but as a pratical format it is flawed in everyway.
Steve
Posted on: 28 July 2008 by ewemon
In actual fact you are not allowed to copy any music album or compact disc even once as it as classed as illegal copying. It is peoples misconception that you can. This has been their stance ever since I worked in the industry.
However the PRS and the BPI don't try to enforce it as they know it would be nigh on impossible.
But they include this in their count of monies lost due to illegal copying.
However the PRS and the BPI don't try to enforce it as they know it would be nigh on impossible.
But they include this in their count of monies lost due to illegal copying.
Posted on: 28 July 2008 by Jet Johnson
quote:Piracy = Theft simple as in my book. Whether the artist is on a big label or a small label. Whether it is Elton John that is being illegally downloaded or an emerging artist struggling to make a crust it is the same difference. Hey, if someone started taking money out of my pay packet I wouldn't be chuffed. If someone stole my car would I see it as 'car sharing' nah.
...Can't argue with any of that Diccus but let's cut to the chase here
Whilst it remains possible to download 1000,000's and 1000,000's of albums with about 4 clicks of a mouse in the privacy of your own home (for ab-so-lutely zilch other than a relatively small monthly fee to your ISP) millions of people (who in any other circumstance would be totally law abiding citizens) will ALWAYS do so unless they are prevented by technology from doing so.
No if's, no mebbe's, they will ALWAYS do so.
The number of people who will for moral reasons or sound quality reasons not do so is but a drop in the proverbial ocean. Whilst more and more generally older people get to grips with P2P technology it will even increase ...for teenagers filling their IPods it's a no-brainer ....they see it in simple terms ....why on earth would you pay for that latest dance CD when you can download the whole album for nothing within the first 2 days of release?
I'm playing the devil's advocate here big style folks but as far as downloading is concerned technology has trampled on morality it's as simple as that.
Posted on: 29 July 2008 by Ewan Aye
When TV went digital, we had new ways of getting it piped into our homes. The BBC is still there with remnants of old school channels for the old people who are not aware of anything other than BBC1 & 2, ITV & Channel 4, and they continue, for a short while, with having a coat hanger stuck in the chimney. But the TV industry has moved on and managed a system of subscription to pay for the services that they provide.
It's the responsibility of the music industry to wake up to the fact that the world has changed massively from the days before cassette tapes. It's been like this for 35 years, but now it's moving into another gear, and still the music industry think it's 1955.
If their system is failing, then they need to sort it out. It'll take someone a week to come up with something, and the smart thing would be to find a way to gain income whilst allowing free distribution - 'cos it's going to happen anyway. If you're a buyer, then you should get credits to obtain tickets for gigs without having to be ripped off by scalpers etc etc. Stuff like that.
They need to wake up. If they won't deal with it, then it's their problem.
It's the responsibility of the music industry to wake up to the fact that the world has changed massively from the days before cassette tapes. It's been like this for 35 years, but now it's moving into another gear, and still the music industry think it's 1955.
If their system is failing, then they need to sort it out. It'll take someone a week to come up with something, and the smart thing would be to find a way to gain income whilst allowing free distribution - 'cos it's going to happen anyway. If you're a buyer, then you should get credits to obtain tickets for gigs without having to be ripped off by scalpers etc etc. Stuff like that.
They need to wake up. If they won't deal with it, then it's their problem.
Posted on: 29 July 2008 by OscillateWildly
Only release recordings on vinyl, any other format is a copy and gets you 10 years in jail. Advantages being the record companies can sell whole collections again by declaring vinyl is better, and turntable manufacturers get a sales bump.
Cheers,
OW
Cheers,
OW