where to go from 3.5 - 72 - 180 - SnellA
Posted by: Peter Voigt on 12 April 2002
I have been told to upgrade the front end, and possibly add a power supply to my preamp.
Then adding another 180 amp and upgrade the speakers with audio note cables inside.
However, others has told me that the solution is power first.
Any recommendations and any shared experience will be very appreciated.
Regards Peter (Copenhagen Denmark)
Jason was too quick for me. His advice is spot on IMHO. At some stage I think it best to get a decent rack for the gear as well, but that, as you will find out on this Forum is a very big can of worms!
Bob.
Anyway, your first step is to get a hicap for the 72, which completely transforms it. Then you should get a CDX. A used CDX is just a bit more than a CD3.5/hicap. Then, either a 250 or an XPS depending on how much power your speakers need.
Or for a real upgrade, get a good turntable.
--Eric
First, I agree with the recommendations above regarding a hicap for 72. You'll be delighted with the upgrade and may find yourself satisfied. Then I'd suggest putting another hicap on the cd3.5. The two hicaps would set you back around $1500/US total.
The next step I'd consider would be to upgrade the 72 to a 112. I think this would provide more of the "air", naturalness and dynamics you are looking for. The 112 is a wonderful preamp and will be capable of revealing more of what the 3.5 is doing.
Best regards,
Marku
What Jason said. He is exactly correct.
The Snell A is not all that hard to drive and a 180 with a CDX/72/Hicap in front will sound GREAT.
Best,
Bob
- Get a Hi-Cap and use it on your 3.5
- Get the CDX, and move the Hi-Cap to the 72.
- Get the XPS for the CDX.
- Replace the 72 with an 82.
- Replace the Hi-Cap with a Super-Cap
- Replace the CDX with a CDS2 head unit.
- Replace the 82 with a 52
- Replace the 180 with a 250 or two 135s.
- Upgrade your speakers
This will give you the most bang for your buck at each step.
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
good observation Eric...you may also get tickled by the semblance (loosely speaking) between Naim and the Spica Angelus.
"However it is the attack and dynamics that I need."
OK Chaps,
This is where I'll dig my heals in. Over the years I've had many different Naim based systems, heard many others & even sold them for a while. In my experience after carefully reading what Pete said is lacking in his system I fail to see that a Hi cap on the 72 will make much difference compared to a CDX.
Sure the CDX is an expensive piece of kit, but a 2nd hand one will offer real value for money AND give Pete what he is looking for.
A 72, Hi Cap is a fantastic pre amp & will show fairly ruthlessly the short falls in his existing CD player. I know ones mileage can vary, but I would be speechless if adding a Hi cap would sound better than a CDX.
Hell, Tony L is using a NAIT II with his CDX & says his next purchase will be an XPS!
Bob
Just spoke to someone, who claims that the cd5 and the new flatcap2 should be better than the cdx.
he also claimed that the flatcap2 can power the 72 at the same time, and produce impressive results.. This puzzels me, as none of you has mentioned this solution..
Anyone with experience regarding the cd5 w. flatcap2?
I've noticed that you all focus on the front end. So power will be the last step.
thank you for the many qualified replies
Peter
Anyone who claims a CD5/FC2 is better than a CDX is wrong. Sorry to be so blunt, but there it is. I've done exactly that dem and a CD5/Hicap is still left in the dust by a CDX.
Best,
Bob
Bob.
Do you own a pair of Snell yourself? And do you have experiences with naim amplification driving them?
Peter
The cdx is greater.
According to my dealer, the CD5 powered by the supercap is better than the cdx. I heard this setup and it did sound fantastic though I did not compare it to a cdx.
Has anyone out there tried this setup?
Peter, I think the main reason you don't hear many folks suggesting the flatcap 2 is that hicaps are better power supplies and, on the used market, are very cost effective upgrades. For value for money they are hard to beat. Mike's upgrade path described above does a good job utilizing hicaps presumably from the used marketplace...
All the options proposed on this thread are worth considering, but I'm going to propose another way to go even still--and that is to move towards the new series--cd5, flatcap 2, 112, 150. This would be a very *balanced* system and should sound better than your 72/180, though not everyone is enamored of the sound of the new lines. I do think they are quite good, though. They have the advantage of having been designed to work together and exploit the technical innovations developed with the NAP 500.
Best advice probably is to visit a good dealer...
Markus
"A 72, Hi Cap is a fantastic pre amp & will show fairly ruthlessly the short falls in his existing CD player. "
---------------------------
Just personally I think the notion that *any* naim preamp/power amp combo will show the "flaws" of the cd 3.5 is overstating the case. I believe this statement only to be true within the context of a comparison to other, much more expensive players. If the cds/cdi/cd2/cdx etc had never been invented the cd3.5 would be considered a great player *on it's own merits*.
Just wanted to respond to a theme I often see on this conference that just doesn't make sense to me, personally.
Markus
I don't own Snells--I have SBLs. The dealer I worked with has a very good friend who had Snell Type A's and ran them with a variety of amps. Heard them fairly extensively and FWIW I think it is a very good speaker.
Have heard Type A's with a variety of Naim amps, and they get better and better as you move up the chain, as you would expect. Interestingly they do not appear at all difficult to drive, so even a 140 sounded terrific. The 180 and 250 provided more scale, refinement, and grip as expected.
My personal bottom line would be if you like the speaker to stick with it and optimize it. They'll respond very well to source and preamp upgrades; given your system I would start just as Jason suggested. Source first, while it can be carried to absurdities, really does work and a CDX or better is the way to go. And while a CD5/Supercap might be a bit better than a CDX, it damn well ought to for the price difference!
Best,
Bob
PS--I agree with Markus to the effect that a 3.5 is a great player and that we sometimes can overstate how "ruthlessly" a pre-power combo will "expose" a given CD player. Commercial reality intrudes--if you have a chance to acquire a particular piece of gear at a price you're comfortable with, go for it.
3 weeks ago I bought a CDX
My advice...
Get the CDX
You won't regret it 
ps...I was using a 3.5/Flatcap for 4 years...reckon I had a pretty good handle on how it sounded. CDx is radically better in every way.
People who describe it as harsh must be doing something wrong IMO.
Now acc. to source first, the hicap should reveal flaws in the Rotel, and indeed it did show, for instance that some opacity in the upper bass was the fault of the cd player. But that was because it EXPOSED how good the midrange was. It EXPOSED how much bass was coming out of the Rotel. It EXPOSED loads of musical detail and flow. FWIW cd became less "digital" and harsh with the hicap. And the CD3 was harsher, and would have been even worse without the hicap.
Acc. to source first, moving from the Rotel to the CD3, with the better (i.e. hicapped) lens should have been a big jump, but it wasn't that big.
Now it is possible (probable) that with a better source, the hicap is less important. At the same time, a hicap on a Naim pre is a no-brainer.
My two cents,
Eri
"good observation Eric...you may also get tickled by the semblance (loosely speaking) between Naim and the Spica Angelus."
WHAT?????!!!!
Judd
A hicap will most definitely improve the 72's attack and dynamics, and general musicality as well. It will also clean up congestion during loud complex passages.
Having said that, a sourec upgrade will probably provide bigger bang for the buck given Peter's current starting point - and that means CDX or good turntable...or did someone else already give the same advice?
Peter, If you're buying new, you can hear the options at a dealer so you won't have to take our word for it. If you're buying used...take our word.
Regards.
Phil
Replacing the NAC112 with a NAC102 brought a massive improvement. Day and Night stuff. Almost as pleasing as my introduction to the LP12 for the first time.
Adding a Flatcap2 to the CD5 took things somewhat further.
If you are going all the way to the top get the CDX - that it is better is not in doubt and the CDS better still. If not the CD5/Flatcap2/NAC102/HiCAP (£3555) will sound markedly better than a CDX/NAC112/HiCAP (£3805).
Just do this demo. I always thought that source first was the way to go until I heard what a bottleneck the preamp can be.
Secondhand obviously makes a marked difference to the prices quoted above. It all depends if you are prepared to buy a secondhand CD player. Personally I didn't want to take that risk.
quote:
WHAT?????!!!!
Sorry, i didn't mean 'shape', if that's what you presumed by the Snell/DBL resemblance...