Where do I start with this silly room?
Posted by: Mike Hanson on 12 June 2001
I would prefer to use some derivation of the first configuration, since the speakers will be pointing out the double doors (and into the rest of the house), and I can lean back in my chair without bumping into the wall. 
Also, the second configuration is pretty much plagued with corner positioning for the speakers, while the first has a fair bit of flexibility for moving the speakers away from the walls.
Ignoring the bay window, the closet, and the always open French doors, the basic dimensions are 12'L x 8.5'W x 8'H. I may have room resonance problems with the 8' width being so close to the 8.5' height, but I'm hoping not. If I treat the ceiling, it will make the difference between dimensions more pronounced, so this may not be a problem.
The main problems with the first approach are the bay windows behind the speakers, which can produce a number of interesting effects from a phaser to a honk. I'll add some curtains, but I like looking out the window too. Also, the position of the chair is rather close to the closet door, which makes it a little difficult to change CDs and such.
There's also the issue of room reflections, standing waves, flutter echo, etc. I've got some software from ETF Acoustics that does real-time measurements of a room's acoustic properties, but it doesn't give any hints of good starting positions. You just keep trying different spots until you find the best measurements. Also, it's designed for a symmetrical room, and mine isn't. (You're supposed to measure just one speaker, and set up the other as a mirror image.) Therefore, I may be forced to test both speakers at the same time or separately, in an attempt to get the best positions. All the other software that I've seen also assumes that your room is a perfect rectangle.
Then there's the concept of the listener being in an equilateral triangle with the speakers. Right now I have them about 18" off each side wall, which puts the centres approximately 5' apart. If I sit with my head 5' from the speakers, this seems rather confined (only slightly bigger than my office system, which is around 4').
As far as room treatments go, I mentioned earlier that I'm going to put curtains on the windows. I may even install an additional roll-down tapestry to completely block the bay window for those intense listening sessions at night, when there's nothing to see out the window. I will also lay an area rug of some type. I'm not sure whether it should run the length of the room, just down at one end, across the front of the speakers, or what.
I appreciate any help or suggestions that you can throw my way. With all of the fiddling with Mana, etc., my wife is getting sick of me tweaking my stereo. (At least when I'm listening to music I can interact with her, but when I'm doing set up stuff, I'm indisposed.) I also don't enjoy fiddling, as listening to music is much more fun. Thanks guys.
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
I have exprience with room containing bay window of proportions you mention (although a bit wider), and found that the approximation of your option 2 way, way better ("why the hell didn't I try that 9 months ago!!") - the bay window can really screw up your bottom end. I was running Epos ES11's at the time.
Still, theorising is worth little - you really have to suck it and see, as every room is different. Nice pics, Mike!
Remember: There is no ideal installation. Enjoy the journey.
Rico - all your base are belong to us.
Another thing I like about option 1 is that there is no wall behind me, so the speakers can "see" a room length of almost 50' (the full length of the house). If I put them as option #2, long wavelengths will have difficulty forming, so I might end up with poor bass extension.
quote:
you will be far to close to your speakers
The absolute minimum distance that I'm willing to be to my speakers is 5'. There are a few schools of thought for listener/speaker relative positioning. Some say that you should form an equilateral triangle with the speakers. Others say that the distance between the two speakers should equal the distance from the listener to a point between the speakers.
I generally prefer the second. If you get too far away, then you lose too much of the soundstage (the good soundstage, not the silly, artificial, pinpoint imaging, blah, blah, blah...). If you get too close, then it feels like your sitting inside a pair of headphones, and that's just weird. Also, in #2, I'm quite close to the wall behind me, which might screw with the bass.
quote:
wouldn't it be better to change the "ME" to "WE"?!
I'm the only person who'll be sitting in there regularly. Occasionally I have various individuals over for listening sessions. I usually give them the hot seat, while I move around the room picking out music, changing CDs, and gesticulating madly. 
When it's larger groups of people, we might be:
- doing dinner, which is beside the listening room, via the French doors.
- in the sitting room, which is all the way to the front of the house (that big 50' distance), then a right turn into the living room. The sound should travel "ok" this way, or we could open another set of French doors between the dinning room and sitting room, which makes the path much more direct.
- in the back yard, which is accessible to the listening room via the two side windows of the bay window.
- in the basement, watching movies in the "home theatre".
If I use option #1, then a bigger chair is not possible. If it's #2, then I could fit a love seat or 3-seater couch. For now, I have a wingback chair arriving on Saturday.
quote:
is there no way of removing the wall which makes up the cupboard?
Anything is possible, although this wall is quite substantial (lots of studs and drywall). Also, the hardwood floor would need to be patched and matched, which might not look good. If I decided to move the gear to a different room at some point in the future, then the closet might be needed again. Finally, it hides all of that ugly Mana, muffles any transformer buzz from the Naim gear, and keeps my two cats off the turntable.
quote:
Being as you are on that side of the pond, shouldn't you have a choice of a couple of giant rooms for the system?
My house actually does have a bunch of big rooms, but it comes down to practicality and compromise.
- I've got my secondary system in my office upstairs. Considering how much time I spend there, I was considering putting the good system there instead. However, it would involve positioning the speakers in an inconvenient location (making entering the room a bit of an obtacle course), and the great music might distract me from work.
- We have a spare bedroom upstairs, but it's full of bedroom stuff. The room is also close to square (13'x14').
- We've got the home theatre in the basement. I could have created another hybrid system there like in my apartment, but I prefer listening to music with daylight streaming in the windows.
- I would love to put the system in my sitting room (a.k.a. living room), which is about 22'L x 13'W x 8'H. However my wife wants to keep it "formal", and she doesn't really like the look of stereo gear, speakers that look like "speakers" (in-wall might be ok), bulky cables, etc. It's also got the piano in there, which is supposed to kill stereos (although it wasn't a problem in my apartment). I must admit, I like the look of the room as it is now. My system might eventually end up in there, but it would take a lot of fighting to make it happen. Besides, in my stereo room my wife has given me "permission" to diddle with it as much as necessary. Although she would like it to look good too, I can do anything I want to make it sound good. This includes ugly foam panels, tube traps, and whatever else I might require to make it all work.
Therefore, the most "practical" room for the stereo is where it is right now. It also means that music flows through the main floor of the house, making kitchen duties a pleasure, and adding music to all of those special occasions. This is much better than hiding it in my office, a spare bedroom, or the basement. Only the living room could compare, in this respect.
BTW, I did the drawings with a shareware program called SmartDraw. It's essentially the same as CorelDraw or Visio for this type of thing.
Thanks again for your feedback. It looks like there's now "best" way to start, other than just tweaking until it's "right".
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
[This message was edited by Mike Hanson on WEDNESDAY 13 June 2001 at 13:24.]
I'm not convinced about the positioning of the hot-tub off centre to the right. Surely it should be off centre to the left to balance the effect of the wall?
As for the Cher CD's shouldn't they be in the fireplace...
Regards
Steve
Coincidentally, I just rescued Jill's Cher disc this morning. "Someone" had "misplaced" it deep in my office closet amongst a bunch of boxes. I'm not sure whether I did the right thing (latter or former).
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
so I won't be unduly put out if you decide to go with #1.In the past I would probably have said option 1. I agree that option 2 is less than ideal since you're sitting quite close the the speakers. As the Albions can go quite close to the wall (1 foot) and the chair/love sofa can go against the opposite wall, we're talking about a listening distance of 7 feet. Place the Albions 6 feet apart and you're in business.
If you could remove the closet wall, option 1 would become more interesting. I'm convinced that sidewall reflections are an issue - even in a smallish room like this. The reflections will mean that you will be able to 'hear' the closet wall. Removing it would be very good for both setups, but more for option 1 than 2. To me, the closet wall removes option 1 from the equation - option 3 is of course a good option. I don't see the speakers needing 50' behind you. They'll be more contrained shooting down the narrow path, than breathing into the open one that option 2 provides.
Of course, the best would be to try each for a week or two so you can appreciates the benefits of each solution and which is more important to you.
Regards,
Frank.
Room is 8.5 x 17. Available room is 8.5x10 ( Other 7 feet taken up with desk / reading nook - No option to move it either. )
I tried the option # 1 ( Complete with Window, not bay tho )first. Did not work - I have Kan's and with the window behind - total crap. Also keeping them away from the side walls left too little space between. I had to move the listening position closer to get some semblance of a soundstage.
With Option # 2, things took a bit to sort out.
I now have 20" from speaker side to wall, and 69" between speaker centers, Listening postion is a small sofa against the opposite wall. The rack sits off to the R side. Distance from me to speakers on the perpendicular is just over 7 feet.
It took a bit to get used to being hard against a wall with no free space around. But overall it works ALOT better than option #1. Counterintuative I know ( except for the Kan/Window thing - I knew that would happen ) I still figured even with the window using the lenght would sound better, especially with the door open so the room does not pressurize.
I was wrong.
Overall I get quite better sound using #2. You will have to try them all, but I'm betting on 2 or 3. 3 will give the speakers even more room to breathe, but be firing into an alcove. Trials will tell.
Just my experiences, adding to the confusion 
mykel
As many of you have said, I'm just going to have to suck it and see. Ho hum... I'm getting really tired of all this, all in the name of music.
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
I've experimented with moving the speakers out from the walls (about 18" from both side and back at the moment). At that point it's a bit better, but it's still far from acceptable. This is with me sitting with my chair against the wall. If, I lean forward so that my head is about 2 feet away from the wall, then it sounds pretty good.
Unfortunately this puts me about 4 feet away from the speakers, which is just a little too cozy for my tastes. Also, I can't move around much, since the bass is too extreme when I lean back, and it almost disappears when I lean forward more. I've never seem such a pronounced variation with such a small range of motion (except, perhaps, when I listened to Acoustat electrostatics 20 years ago).
I'm going to fiddle with it some more over the next day or so, but it looks like I might have to go back to option #1.
Option #3 (a.k.a. mirror of #2) hasn't been tried yet, and it would mean more distance from the side walls. However, it would also put me in the alcove, and walls and bass just don't mix. Also, I would have to bounce my remote signal off the wall, I couldn't see which track is playing, etc.
Maybe I'll have to rip down that closet wall after all. Or even <GASP!!!> consider a pair of wall proximity speakers like SBLs. <Shudder!>
For now I'll continue playing with what I have, and see what I can figure out.
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
If I can get option #2 to work, then I might add another, or change it to a sofa at some point in the future. If I have to revert to #1, then it won't work.-=> Mike Hanson <=-
[This message was edited by Mike Hanson on TUESDAY 19 June 2001 at 16:06.]