Keeping my options open as I take my first steps in DA

I would use a Mac Mini to connect directly to the Supernait DAC via Toslink Mini rather than the Airport Express because the AE only supports 44.1 kHZ at 16bit.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter Dinh:
I would use a Mac Mini to connect directly to the Supernait DAC via Toslink Mini rather than the Airport Express because the AE only supports 44.1 kHZ at 16bit.

I'm not quite up to speed on bit rates but i thought this wasn't an issue with Apple lossless.

It is indeed an issue from the AE to the Supernait.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter Dinh:
It is indeed an issue from the AE to the Supernait.

I guess I shouldn't have wasted my time on the AE.

Can I expect the sound quality to improve with the Apple mini?

Well, with the Mac Mini you can have up to to 96/24 via Toslink mini. However, if you rip CDs to Apple Lossless then 44.1/24 is already a markedly improvement over 44.1/16 (via AE) plus you have a possibility of using firewire with a certain DAC such as Weiss. Basically, you have more choices and potentials with the Mac Mini, also I gather that some people here use Amarra and according to them, this piece of software brings iTunes to another level.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter Dinh:
Well, with the Mac Mini you can have up to to 96/24 via Toslink mini. However, if you rip CDs to Apple Lossless then 44.1/24 is already a markedly improvement over 44.1/16 (via AE) plus you have a possibility of using firewire with a certain DAC such as Weiss. Basically, you have more choices and potentials with the Mac Mini, also I gather that some people here use Amarra and according to them, this piece of software brings iTunes to another level.

So are you saying Apple Lossless is limited to 44.1/24?

One of the things I'm concerned with is reburning my library at Apple Lossless. I would like this to be the last time I burn my library.

Nope, this is not what I am saying. You can use Audio Midi Setup to configure the digital output format, be it 96/24, 44.1/24 or 44.1/16 and this has nothing to do with the Apple Lossless. However, since CD is encoded at 44.1/16 so there is little point of making the Mac Mini to output at 96/24 if you see what I mean. Actually, you make it sound worse than 44.1/24.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter Dinh:
Nope, this is not what I am saying. You can use Audio Midi Setup to configure the digital output format, be it 96/24, 44.1/24 or 44.1/16 and this has nothing to do with the Apple Lossless. However, since CD is encoded at 44.1/16 so there is little point of making the Mac Mini to output at 96/24 if you see what I mean. Actually, you make it sound worse than 44.1/24.

okay, so if CD is encoded at 44.1/16 does it make sense to increase this rate?



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quote:

Originally posted by novelty:

quote:

Originally posted by Peter Dinh:
I would use a Mac Mini to connect directly to the Supernait DAC via Toslink Mini rather than the Airport Express because the AE only supports 44.1 kHZ at 16bit.

I'm not quite up to speed on bit rates but i thought this wasn't an issue with Apple lossless.

CDs are 16/44.1 you don't need any better unless you want to play back any high res downloads in which case you could store them on a cheepy netbook with xp and a m Audio transit as a 24/96 toslink interface into the Supernait or any other Dac that takes you're fancy in the future and leave the 1000 cds on an apple and use its toslink out or the AE express.

I don't think the M audio transit works so well on vista as on xp, mine would not do 24/96 only 24/44.1 but on a xp based pc it did do the 24/96.

I have to say there is not that much high res music available that I want to listen to right now, will there ever?

If the major music company's released their back catalog in high res and there were enough customers ( like in the mid 80's and early 90's when they did this with vinyl to cd ) they could make all that money, for no effort, all over again... oh what a gravy train that was!

I would also suggest trying aiff vs lossless rips of some test tracks before you start to rip the whole collection, just to see what you are happy with, if you rip to aiff and run out of space you can down sample to lossless at some point or do this for less critical tracks or albums.

quote:

Originally posted by Mikeie:

quote:

Originally posted by novelty:

quote:

Originally posted by Peter Dinh:
I would use a Mac Mini to connect directly to the Supernait DAC via Toslink Mini rather than the Airport Express because the AE only supports 44.1 kHZ at 16bit.

I'm not quite up to speed on bit rates but i thought this wasn't an issue with Apple lossless.

CDs are 16/44 you don't need any better unless you want to play back any high res downloads in which case you could store them on a cheepy netbook with xp and a m Audio transit as a 24/96 toslink interface into the Supernait or any other Dac that takes you're fancy in the future and leave the 1000 cds on an apple and use its toslink out or the AE express.

I don't think the M audio transit works so well on vista as on xp, mine would not do 24/96 only 24/44 but on a xp based pc it did do the 24/96.

I have to say there is not that much high res music available that I want to listen to right now, will there ever?

If the major music company's released their back catalog in high res and there were enough customers ( like in the mid 80's and early 90's when they did this with vinyl to cd ) they could make all that money for no effort all over again... oh what a gravy train that was!

I would also suggest trying aiff vs lossless rips of some test tracks before you start to rip the whole collection, just to see what you are happy with, if you rip to aiff and run out of space you can down sample to lossless at some point or do this for less critical tracks or albums.

It sounds like you're saying I'm okay with Airport Express given I'm burning from CD and have no desire to d/l high res music.

quote:

Originally posted by Mikeie:
CDs are 16/44 you don't need any better unless you want to play back any high res downloads...

It is not right, even CDs are encoded at 44/16 but iTunes will sound better if the digital out is set at 44/24. There are numerous articles and discussions about it, please google.

I feel is is better to let a dac handle the up sample it dose so with less jitter than a computer the computer needs more overhead to do so and this can cause more noise in the music.

But we are now splitting hairs, talking technical jargon that confuses the issue steers the thread and dose not help answer the o.p. questions as per the normal in any mac/dac ect. posts.

Garbage in, garbage out, man. It is that simple, this is why you need a high quality digital source such as the HDX (say) instead of an AE.

No real evidence that there is any real difference though is there. Audiophiles have managed to transfer all their neurosis over to DA, and are frankly ruining it for the rest of us.


OP as you have order the express give it a go, it is by far the cheapest route right now. It will give you 80% of the sound you desire. However a mini is better it has a full operating system behind it and in the future when some decent music actually becomes available for highres it will be able to handle it. Plus a mini can be used for other tass at the same time which is an obvious bonus.

My opinion of hi def music is the same with film. New recordings done with the proper equipment fine, but what seems to happen is things like MIles Davis or what ever comes out as hi def and its just no different. I watched an old black and white film that had been made hi def. Why? There was no point it still looked scratchy and knackered and old, but a little bit sharper scratchy, knackered and old.

Some of this hi def material just sound more trebbly to my ears with very little else going for it.

quote:

Originally posted by garyi:
No real evidence that there is any real difference though is there...

Yes, there is. I have been there, done it, from AE to Mac Mini, so I can confirm with definite certainty that it is a big improvement. Plus, bearing in mind that AE is wireless so sometimes you will have some hiccups as the wireless signal can go up and down.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter Dinh:

quote:

Originally posted by garyi:
No real evidence that there is any real difference though is there...

Yes, there is. I have been there, done it, from AE to Mac Mini, so I can confirm with definite certainty that it is a big improvement. Plus, bearing in mind that AE is wireless so sometimes you will have some hiccups as the wireless signal can go up and down.

Peter is correct and the difference through a decent DAC is clearly audible, I assume the SN is no exception. The correct Audio MIDI output setting for ripped CDs is 24/44 - there are lots of articles on this. But as I say, it's easily demonstrated.


Some other points that may be worth noting, AIFF and Apple Lossless files can be easily converted to each other - so don't get hung up about which one you rip them in. They both rip losslessly, its just that Apple Lossless then zips them to save space. The is no sonic difference if both formats are properly supported by whatever you play them on.

Peter mentioned Amarra, it does not currently support Apple Lossless.

Joe

Welcome to the world of DA, where nothing is quite as it seems and no one agrees with anyone

I've tried two Airport Expresses - one a brand new one I got yesterday. Both go through patches of dropping out, so are unusable. If you google "airport express drops out" you'll see it's not an uncommon problem. Maybe it's my network, maybe it's my pc, maybe .. but all my other wireless stuff, including some Squeezeboxes work fine, so unless I can get a solution I'll abandon my AE. I bought it from an Apple store so have 14 days to get my money back - suggest you do the same. Would be great if it worked. AE does limit you to redbook cds, and no amount of jiggery-pokery with upsampling can alter that. And if you have an up-sampling DAC, why pre-empt it! As far as hi-res stuff is concerned, make a list of the hi-res material you would genuinely listen to for more than it's novelty value before you spend much money supporting it.

quote:

Originally posted by garyi:
No real evidence that there is any real difference though is there. Audiophiles have managed to transfer all their neurosis over to DA, and are frankly ruining it for the rest of us.


OP as you have order the express give it a go, it is by far the cheapest route right now. It will give you 80% of the sound you desire. However a mini is better it has a full operating system behind it and in the future when some decent music actually becomes available for highres it will be able to handle it. Plus a mini can be used for other tass at the same time which is an obvious bonus.

My opinion of hi def music is the same with film. New recordings done with the proper equipment fine, but what seems to happen is things like MIles Davis or what ever comes out as hi def and its just no different. I watched an old black and white film that had been made hi def. Why? There was no point it still looked scratchy and knackered and old, but a little bit sharper scratchy, knackered and old.

Some of this hi def material just sound more trebbly to my ears with very little else going for it.

Depends. 24/96 record dubs can sound better than a CD and analog tape transfers can be stunning but I absolutely agree that many of these transfers are just overkill as the original material doesn't warrant it or has been degraded and some transfer processes leave much to be desired. Still plenty to get wrong.

As for the OP. I'd look into a ripper with offset etc. like XLD if I'm reripping and maybe rip to AIFF to keep processing and buffer usage lower on playback unless storage space is an issue. Also allows a player like Amarra if you go that way in the future.

@novelty

quote:

I will be using a Macbook Pro via eSATA and plan to store the iTunes library on a Lacie 1TB External drive.

The MacBook Pro has an optical out through the headphone socket - you can connect direct to the Supernait if you wish. If you already own the MacBook Pro no need in the first instance to get a mini or, indeed, anything else.

I have owned Lacie drives before and found them to make a sound akin to an aircraft taking off. Maybe this has changed but is something to keep in mind.

The Western Digital My Book drives have no internal fan and may be worth your consideration.

Very interested to see how you get on

Thank you for the replies.

So if i'm understanding correctly, my preference will be to use 44.1/24 for ripping my cds. This is a setting I establish prior to ripping, correct?

And the Airport Express can't accommodate 44.1/24 and there is an audible difference b/w 24 and 16. I don't have an issue with spending a little extra $ to get the Mac Mini and will do so for an audible improvement in sonics.

As for the Lacie drive, I assumed I will need more space than my 250GB macbook can handle given the resource demands of the larger lossless files. My plan was to have the macbook/lacie drive in a separate room from my HiFi. Is the humming noise audible in the HiFi or are you referring to the drive hardware itself making noise?

@novelty

I can't comment about any effect on the music - it is the drive itself that was very loud. As I say, though, things may have changed. If it is in a different room, though, it is unlikely to be too important - just something to bear in mind.

If you already own the MacBook I am not sure it is necessary to get the Mac Mini as well. You can use the optical cable to connect the airport to the Supernait or to connect the MacBook and test any intrinsic differences and also any differences between 44/16 and 44/24.

Wow, lots of crazy talk on this thread.

You DO NOT need to rip your cds at 24/44. This will just add eight zeros to the 16 bits of actual information, wasting a ton of space.

Some people do believe that the correct setting for Quicktime to decode is 24/44. To my knowledge there is no proof of this other than some anecdotal claims. On the other hand, why not.

However, this is irrelevant when using an Airport Express because the in that case the Express, not the computer running Quicktime, does the rendering of the ones and zeros into a timed bitstream--and it accepts apple lossless regardless of whether the files are .wav, .aiff, or already in lossless.

If you are just checking things out, then the AE makes perfect sense as it is cheap, easily resold or reused, small, multi-function. If dropouts are a problem (and they are for me) you can connect via ethernet cable.

It is true it does not do hi-rez but so what?--if you decide hi-rez is a killer app for you then you have many options, and will likely have many more as time passes (including perhaps a Naim streamer).

I do second the recommendation to use XLD because the accuraterip function assures that you have a skip-free rip, while in itunes you have to actually play the entire disk to know if it copied perfectly. Nonetheless this is a small point.

quote:

Originally posted by Eric Barry:
Wow, lots of crazy talk on this thread.

Wouldn't be the Naim Forum without a little bit of crazy talk !

quote:

Originally posted by novelty:

So if i'm understanding correctly, my preference will be to use 44.1/24 for ripping my cds. This is a setting I establish prior to ripping, correct?

Not if you intend ripping to Apple Lossless. Apple lossless is just that, lossless. So once you've selected Apple Lossless to rip to, there is nothing else to set.