The comparative cartridge dem -- a thing of the past

Posted by: Joe Petrik on 04 February 2001

Most of you who have run good tables over the years have noted an all-too-common problem. You can't get a decent comparative dem of cartridges any more.

It certainly isn't the mid-to-late '80s, a time when the better flat earth dealers used to have several (!) LP12s on the floor to give customers a comparative dem of various arm, cartridge and power supply options. Yup, those days are as extinct as the dodo.

And it's easy to understand why. From a business perspective, it makes little sense to stock several (fragile) multi-thousand dollar cartridges just for the occasional sale to an analogue nutter. But all the same, it is frustrating that you can't compare the Linn Archiv B to the Dynavector Te Kaitora to the Lyra Parnassus -- all on the same table, through the same gear, in the same room.

I didn't do that, but I had a chance to try a DV Te Kaitora in my system this weekend. As part of the 12-step Audiophool Anonymous program I've been asked to not list my system in every post but I'll be forgiven here. I have a Rega p9 with RB900 arm, 102, napsc, Hi-Cap, 250, and Royd Sorcerers. Usually, a rebuilt Linn Karma sits on the p9... but not his weekend.

I'll get the nerdy stuff out of the way first. The p9, like all Rega decks, doesn't allow you to easily adjust the VTA. Rega sells spacers you can put under the arm, but they don't allow for fine adjustment or easy A/B comparisons. Fortunately, the Te Kaitora doesn't seem to really need them. With needle in groove, the arm seemed parallel with the record but I understand that adjusting by ear is the only way to ensure the VTA is right. If you're a real nutter, you might want to fiddle.

Unlike the XX-1L (the other DV cartridge p9 users seem to like), the Te Kaitora is fairly light at 8.8 grams. You can get by with the stock counterweight Rega supplies. Again, it's not a big deal but it is nice to try a cartridge without having to hang a brick off the back to balance it.

I'm not certain which phono boards are best with the TK since I only had my K-boards on hand. For what it's worth, if the S-boards make the TK any better, that cartridge is truly a coup de grace for analogue replay. It's one of those products where it's hard to imagine extracting more music from them thar grooves.

And that it did. It's hard to describe the TK because when something is done right, it seems silly to describe it. But much the rug in the dude's apartment (reference to The Big Lebowski, a Coen Bros. film), it just held the music together. That's the word I'm looking for: coherence. The separate instrumental lines work together to create a whole greater than the sum of its parts.

And da riddim, mon. Yup, it has that, too. I half expected the TK would smack me over the head with groove but after listening to several records, it seems that its portrayal of rhythm is just like what you get from real musicians. Sometimes it's fast, sometimes it's slow, sometimes it's in between. The Karma, by contrast, seems more "beat-like" -- it certainly gets your toes tapping, but it doesn't seem to fully understand that toes can tap at different speeds.

The TK is the most sophisticated and detailed cartridge I've heard. Cymbals have a nice bite but without the nasty edge. Kick drums have wallop but without the false bass "thump" many systems produce. And hidden instruments appear from what was once haze. My only reservation is that on the p9, in my system, the tonal balance is a bit too forward. I assume that the S-boards would fix that but I didn't have a pair on hand to try.

The only other high-end cartridge I've spent quality time with is the Troika, and I'd put the TK clearly above that. So if vinyl is your thing and you have the bucks (the TK retails for $2,450 US), put this sucker on your short list.

Joe

[This message was edited by Joe Petrik on SUNDAY 04 February 2001 at 23:21.]

Posted on: 04 February 2001 by Top Cat
quote:
the rug in the dude's apartment (reference to The Big Lebowski, a Coen Bros. film), it just held the music together

A very fine film indeed! Beefheart in a film soundtrack, and where did I leave those Creedence tapes....????

John

Posted on: 05 February 2001 by John Schmidt
....but I just happened to see The Big Lebowski on video this weekend. Not the Coen brothers best (I'd rank Fargo and Raising Arizona as better) as it gets a bit incoherent 2/3 of the way through, but that still puts it above 90% of American films. Particularly charming is that the dialogue manages to give "cuss words" almost as much PRaT as Naim gear could!

Cheers,

John Schmidt
"90% of everything is crud" - Theodore Sturgeon

Posted on: 05 February 2001 by Joe Petrik
Hey John,

Agreed, The Big Lebowski is one of the Coen Bros.'s better films, although it's no Raising Arizona. Aye, now therrrre's a film.

But back to the topic of the post... How about that Te Kaitora, eh? It's supposed to be a killer on the end of an Aro, so you might want to give it a spin.

Joe

Posted on: 05 February 2001 by Ron Toolsie
Heres an interesting thought. Just for fun I made a few recordings on my cassette deck of the same piece of music- one version with a dedictated supercap for the Prefix, and one without. The differences are VERY audible via cassette tape.


Wouldn't it be great if somebody would have a CD-ROM that had the Ekos vs Aro, or the Geddon vs Lingo, or Troika vs Lyridian....True we would be at mercy of our CD players, but what we are talking about are differences that probably are larger than those between good cd players.
Just an idea. Any takers?

Ron
Dum spiro audio
Dum audio vivo

http://homepages.go.com/~rontoolsie/index1.html

Posted on: 05 February 2001 by Joe Petrik
Ron,

quote:
Wouldn't it be great if somebody would have a CD-ROM that had the Ekos vs Aro, or the Geddon vs Lingo, or Troika vs Lyridian....True we would be at mercy of our CD players, but what we are talking about are differences that probably are larger than those between good cd players.

Just an idea. Any takers?


Nah, I'd rather see a table with columns and rows comparing the main contenders across several important parameters. wink

Joe

Posted on: 05 February 2001 by Keith Mattox
Joe,

Perhaps you can copy this over to the Dyna forum...

Cheers

Keith.

[This message was edited by Keith Mattox on MONDAY 05 February 2001 at 22:02.]

Posted on: 06 February 2001 by Joe Petrik
Keith,

I agree; the Dynie forum is the obvious place to post a message about their cartridges. But whether through accident of history or divine intervention, Naimies have become ambassadors for analogue.

Where else can you find guys who run the signal from their cartridges through $5,000 dollars worth of equipment before it even reaches the preamp?

Joe

Posted on: 06 February 2001 by Phil Barry
Yeah, and of that $5K, $4.6K just provides the da*ned power.
Posted on: 06 February 2001 by Nic Peeling
Ron says
quote:
Wouldn't it be great if somebody would have a CD-ROM that had the Ekos vs Aro, or the Geddon vs Lingo, or Troika vs Lyridian....True we would be at mercy of our CD players, but what we are talking about are differences that probably are larger than those between good cd players.
Just an idea. Any takers?

My father purchased a Pioneer 609 CD recorder (£280) to make CDs of his reel-to-reel recordings. He did a recording direct from his NAT 01 and I was astounded by the quality played back through his CD player, so I decided to buy a 609 and record some of my LPs to play on my CD-only second system.

My turntable is Roksan Xerxes, Artemiz and Koetsu Red Signature. I played back the recording in sync with the turntable on my CD player (top-end Theta) through 52/250 and BKS speakers, and the difference was audible but remarkably small. The main loss was that the image was thrown back behind the speakers in a most attractive way on the turntable, but came forward significantly on the CD copy.

I took a CD copy and LP to my friend Neil's and compared the CD copy (played on CDX/XPS on phase 6 Mana) with his LP12/Ekos2/Troika (on Phase 4 Mana). We got a very good presentation of the difference between the two turntable and catridge combos. Obviously the CD copy of the Roksan was at a disadvantage, but it still sounded very analogue and was by no means humbled by the Linn. My guess is that many aspects of the difference between cartridges would be very clearly audible by making CD recordings.

As an aside the A-to-D conversion on the 609 must be very good indeed (a point not often made by the Hi-Fi mags that seem to concentrate on CD to CD recording).

Nic P

Posted on: 06 February 2001 by Frank Abela
So Joe,

1. Are you buying one?
2. How green is Vuk, now that you've heard a better model on a P9? smile

I didn't know there was a Dynavector forum....

Regards,
Frank.

Posted on: 06 February 2001 by Mike Hanson
The Dynavector forum is hosted alongside the Royd and Exposure forums at http://64.70.137.136/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Posted on: 06 February 2001 by Joe Petrik
Frank,

quote:
1. Are you buying one?

It does look nice on the end of my RB900 [momentary pause to clean slobber from keyboard] but the TK is $2,500 US, an amount I neither have nor can justify for a widget that wears out. I think the XX-1L is more my speed.


quote:
2. How green is Vuk, now that you've heard a better model on a P9?

Honestly Frank, I've never seen him like this. He can't eat or sleep. I think I've triggered his descent into madness.



Joe

Posted on: 08 February 2001 by Joe Petrik
Chris,

quote:
I know two people who have brand new ones, just brought out for the first time in the last few months after their last one's wore out, and they feel, as I do, that the Troika is-to this day-a marvelous piece of engineering. These are very trustworthy listeners.

I would pay a lot for a sealed one.


The Troika is certainly one of the best cartridges I've heard but my concern would be that, even if unused, its suspension would be at least a decade old or more. Rubber does wear out, so caveat emptor.

I have a vdH-rebuilt Karma, which I rank above a stock Karma but below a stock Troika. It's a good cartridge and cost effective to get rebuilt. But what the Te Kairora did on my p9 convinced me that the Karma is like a 32.5 (a warm and fuzzy friend) and the TK is like an 82 (a quantum leap forward).

Joe

Posted on: 08 February 2001 by Phil Barry
My enjoyment of LPs took a giant step 18 months ago when I got an ARO and another 4 months ago when I got a Linn-rebuilt Karma. This thread interests me greatly.

Chris Koster, My perception is that some people like the pre-Cirkus LP12 better than the Cirkused one, and the same people prefer the Troika to the Archiv. Others prefer the Cirkus/Archiv.

What's your view of the Cirkus? (Personally, I have a slight preference for the Cirkus. I have it, but it was a minor change to my ears.)

Thanks.

Phil - already worrying about what to do when my Karma needs rebuilding (or does it already?)

Posted on: 09 February 2001 by Martin M
Good words of praise for this cartridge, sounds like it's worth a try!

I was wondering about the output levels though. It seems to me if I go for a low-output Helikon, in a few years time when I need another one I'll be stuffed (as it sounds like alimited edition). So, Mssrs at Naim, how about a set of Helikon boards for the 52/82 etc. You could make some money and I can get a great cartridge that ain't going to kill my bank account and one I can replace in 3 years time.

How's about it?

Posted on: 09 February 2001 by Frank Abela
Chris

Your experience with the Helikon is not mine. Although the Helikon's transparency and resolution is very good indeed, I found it to have no soul - it simply didn't stir up any emotions in the music that was played on it, varying from C&W through Hendrix, classical and jazz - and this over a long period of time before we got shot of the thing.

Also, contrary to your experience in the States, the local distributor here in the UK is pretty unhelpful. This doesn't exactly make us want to support the product either. That's a bad double whammy...

Regards,
Frank.

Posted on: 09 February 2001 by Joe Petrik
Chris,

quote:
The reality for me is that it has taken a long time to find a cartridge that is as musically involving as the Troika, even my old and somewhat worn one.

Doesn't surprise me at all since the Troika is one hell of a cartridge and works wonderfully on an LP12, whether it has Linn bits or Naim bits. But I am surprised you didn't get on with the more expensive Dynavectors. Several people here with solid Naim systems have been bowled over by the Te Kaitora (an anagram for 'Eat Troika'?) and the XV-1. But different strokes for different folks, I guess.


quote:
I do not claim to be an authority on vinyl, or anything, I just know what works best for me.

Although I don't go as far as Mike 'Mr. Relativity' Hanson, I fully agree. I know what works for me. I'm definitely a grooviness/tunefulness head and can live with squashed dynamics or imperfect tonal balance. But if your priorities are different, you won't like my system.


quote:
I have recently heard a cdr that Michael Fremer made from a Rockport with Helikon through NBL/500 system and you could tell that the Rockport is probably the best turntable ever made, but the price.....good god, y'all.

It wouldn't be this table, would it? Jeez Louise, you'd think that for $75,000 they'd at least have the good sense to put BNCs on the phono cable, eh.


quote:
It was Michael that turned me on the Helikon-he really liked it, and he was right about it, and it works in an ARO.


Isn't MF the spawn of the devil? wink

Joe

[This message was edited by Joe Petrik on FRIDAY 09 February 2001 at 18:36.]

Posted on: 09 February 2001 by Phil Barry
I have doubts that the name Te Kaitora was chosen because it can also spell 'eat troika'. Remember that Dyna is a Japanese company with reported connections in New Zealand (Listener?). It's exteremly hard to do intentioanl anagrams in foreign languages, and to manipulate 3 languages at once? I can see 3-labguage puns, but....

Phil

Chris,

Good to see your not ieological or anything about hifi! ;-)

Phil

Posted on: 10 February 2001 by Mark Dunn
Hi Chris (Koster):

Re:

>The Dynavectors were very good, but not in the
>league of the Troika or Lyras in any parameter.

I use an XV-1 in an ARO and am interested as to how you got the bias setting correct for this beast (and the Te Kaitora for that matter). I had to add mass to the bias weight to get it right and when I say 'right' I mean both empirically and subjectively. If you've got a less 'Heath Robinson' solution I'd be grateful for the info'.

Also, if you play with a TK or XV-1 again, try experimenting with the VTA and be sure to get the horizontal azimuth (as seen from the front of the arm) *absolutely* correct. I've found the Dynies to be rather more sensitive then normal to these parameters.

Lastly, next time you're coming to Dallas, please let me know, as I'd enjoy having a chat with you (and with any luck, you'd enjoy it too!).

Best Regards,
Mark Dunn
(ex Troika user, rabid XV-1 fan)

Posted on: 10 February 2001 by ken c
is this a replacement of the clavis??

enjoy...

ken

Posted on: 10 February 2001 by ken c
i have often thought that 3point fixing gives cartridges a certain enhanced musical quality -- but the troika appears to be rated above linn's arkivs - which are also 3point fixed. perhaps the aro was designed (properly) specifically musically tuned the troika??

i have arkiv I --- and i know that its not as emotional as my old troika was. if i hadnt been sold on the 'better than troika' pitch ... etc etc

enjoy...

ken

Posted on: 10 February 2001 by Paul B
Ken:

The Arkiv II is better than both Troika and Arkiv I. I have owned all three and the Arkiv II is superb.

Paul

Posted on: 11 February 2001 by ken c
paul many thanks. did you compare arkiv ii to other alternatives being mentioned here, like dynavectors or the lyras? i know its hard these days, but just perchance...

enjoy...
ken

Posted on: 11 February 2001 by Eric Barry
Phil,

There are several sites that will transliterate and translate words between languages, and people have much fun going back and forth between different languages--the 'new economy' version of the old game telephone.

So you could put in eat troika, get out a list of anagrams, put those through the transliteration/translation programs to get out japanese, and choose one that actually meant something.

As to the Helikon, it is the Clavis replacement (only $800 more, too). It was precede by the Evolve 99, which was limited, but the Helikon is not, and will probably be around in three years. Also, I'm pretty sure Scan-tech will rebuild/retip any of their old cartridges.

About Lyra's and soul, they have had a rep as being analytical, detailed, fast, and soul-less, but all reviewers seem to think the Helikon breaks new ground for them in being more emotionally involving.

--Eri

Posted on: 11 February 2001 by Joe Petrik
Shahreza,

quote:
so joe, your comment on k-boards making them more forward is interesting...maybe i should try board swapping.

A good idea with any decent moving-coil cartridge. Try both boards and use the one that sounds better with your cartridge in your system.

quote:
the t-k is miles ahead of a DV 10x4, MILES AHEAD! but it aint crazy and the TT still has to flutter its eyelids a bit for me to give it equal time as the cdx-xps. i suspect it's the p25's 'overly' neutral fault.

Just curious, why did you mount such an upscale cartridge on a comparatively inexpensive table? There's a demonstable hierarchy even within the components of a table, with the quality of cartridge usually well behind the quality of the table, arm and power supply.

Joe