Schubert: What should I listen to?

Posted by: throbnorth on 06 December 2002

I like to think of myself as being reasonably musically literate [as you do], but confess to never having paid Schubert that much attention. I know some of the symphonies [5,6,8,9 - 9 being especially loved] the Trout, and of course 'Who is Sylvia?', and that's about it. Don't know why, but I've never been driven to investigate further.

So imagine the shock on encountering the string quintet in C D.956 for the first time. Obviously big gaps in Throb's musical education to be dealt with, and where better to turn to than here?

Any other pieces I should look at? I'm sure some of those piano sonatas must be worth a go, but which? And by whom? Mitsuko Ushida maybe, or is she too obvious? Is that opera something-brass any good, or best left alone?

throb

PS The recording of the quintet I've heard is some Sony thing using Stradivarius instruments from the Smithsonian, and although beautifully recorded, I could tell that things somehow weren't right, so any pointers to a really good recording of this would also be welcome.
Posted on: 06 December 2002 by herm
Hi Throb,

This is excellent news. Schubert is one of the five greatest composers. The quintet you heard was performed by the Archibudelli, with cellist Anner Bylsma and his wife Vera Beths on first violin playing on period instruments, and if you are uncomfortable with those you won't have trouble finding other recordings. This piece is probably the most frequently recorded piece of chamber music, it's one of those rare cases of an excellent piece that's widely popular.

A favorite recording of mine is the Amadeus Quartet with William Pleeth (there's another combo, too), which is dirt cheap.

You should also investigate the three last string quartets in D minor, A minor and G. A handy issue is by the Alban Berg Quartet (who also did a very successful Quintet) on EMI.

There's the Octet. And there's the piano sonatas, especially the last three (again). There's a couple of midprice discs by Radu Lupu on Decca, that are all eminently worthwhile. Perhaps the Uchida is too - she's an excellent pianist - it's just that I'm not familiar with these.

Lastly there's the two piano trios, also late (i.e. stellar) Schubert, on a cheap Philips Duo disc by the Beaux Arts Trio, which will give a phenomenal return on investment over the years.

Herman
Posted on: 06 December 2002 by Todd A
I concur with Herman's ranking of Schubert. He is one of the great voices in the history of Western Art.

Where to start? The piano sonatas. Which recordings. Start with Wilhelm Kempff's complete cycle on DG. It's a budget box, but it is easily worth full price or even more. Kempff's achievement simply cannot be praised enough. His style with Schubert is ethereal, elevating the music to almost heavenly perfection. Do I wax too poetic. No. Also consider Walter Klien's six-disc (in three volumes) set on Vox. It's only $30 for the lot here, and his Schubert is beyond reproach. The sound is a little less than ideal, but the playing is astoundingly good. I personally find his recordings of the D537 and D845 the best available, and his D959 is not far behind.

Opinions vary on other pianists. I detest Brendel (especially his terrible D894 - what were Philip's executives thinking?) and Uchida, but many others like them. Strangely, I dislike Pollini's digital Schubert (his analog recordings are superb), but some like it. Stephen Kovacevich is superb in the last two sonatas, and his Hyperion recording is of Kempff and Klien stature. (Ross kindly provided me a copy of this deleted gem.) I also like Richter, who strongly divides opinion. Annie Fischer recorded the D960 twice, and both times are well worth hearing, the later, Hungaroton recording especially. And let's not forget Artur Schnabel. His recordings are available in a number of releases, and all are worth hearing, but mostly as alternatives to more modern sets. Both Fischer and Schnabel take a different route on the D960 work, moving swiftly through the usually long opening and showing a greater emphasis on the second movement. Worth hearing, I say. And then there are Andras Schiff and Murray Perahia, both worth hearing.

Then his symphonies. Go out today and buy the Karl Bohm cycle on DG. It's four budget discs and should be in every collection. Then get Beecham's recording on 3, 5, and 6: another must have. Carlos Kleiber's Eighth is exceptional, his Third less so.

The string quintet? I confess to liking the Emerson / Rostropovich ditty, and the Alban Berg set ain't too shabby. In fact, I have yet to hear a bad version of this work. For the quartets, try the Melos set of late quartets on Harmonia Mundi or, again, the Emerson, who fare much better than in their recent Haydn recordings. The Italian and Amadeus Quartets recorded some of the quartets, I do believe, and then there are the mono recordings like the Busch and Budapest. Oh my.

The Trout really should be heard in its ancient mono glory with Schnabel and the Pro Arte Quartet, but really, almost any version will do. I am not familiar enough with many recordings of the other chamber works or lieder to confidently add more suggestions, but my advice is to just try 'em out. I know I will.

[This message was edited by Todd Arola on FRIDAY 06 December 2002 at 19:24.]
Posted on: 06 December 2002 by throbnorth
Herman, many thanks. I was actually hoping that you would reply - this is exactly what I needed. I'm really not sure why I've had a blind spot with Schubert .. thinking about it, it is quite extraordinary, and I can't account for it - but I am delighted that there is probably so much to discover. A bit like the way that opera opens up to unbelievers in the fullness of time [sometimes].

As my favourite symphony is the 9th, and as the quintet and all your recommendations are late stuff, this is obviously the area I need to investigate. I'll take up all your thoughts and let you know how I get on.

The quintet recording was indeed the Archibudelli, although not listed as such. Maybe it would do for a second recording, but somehow I felt it abrasive in the wrong way. This is most unusual for me - I usually stick obstinately to the recording that I get to know a work by, even if no one else thinks much of it.

throb
Posted on: 06 December 2002 by rch
Throb,

I suggest the "Impromptus" (D 899 & D 935) with Alfred Brendel (no matter what Todd says).

Oh, and of course all piano sonatas (Kempff) and string quintets.

Regards
Christian
Posted on: 06 December 2002 by --duncan--
throb,

As usual, can't add much to herm or Todd's selections as regards the symphonies, quartets, quintet and piano sonatas. I've heard Uchida perform some wonderful live Schubert, in particular a great B flat sonata. I can still remember the collective intake of breath at the pause before the final peroration. I don't know what the recording is like though. I have a soft spot for Clifford Curzon in this work. The Volodos disc that Todd recommended elsewhere is really excellent and available at HMV Oxford St. for £7.99 when I last looked! A version of the Impromptus would be one of my desert island discs. Perahia would just about get my vote but Lupu and Brendel are almost equally wonderful.

The main point of this post though, is to suggest that Schubert's greatest inspiration is to be found in his Lieder. Winterreise, rather than Fierrabras is where the genius is. Choosing singers is a very personal thing as I'm sure you know. Very many people love Fischer-Dieskau. My former boss use to travel all over Germany to hear his recitals. I've never got on with his voice though and to my taste he sometimes makes too much of the words at the expense of the melody. I can hear the crys of ‘sacrilege’ already. I have a few of the Hyperion Schubert series and every one has been excellent. As a single recommendation, Ian Bostridge and Julius Drakes first recital disc has many of the 'hits', is sung with absolute sensitivity to the text, in unaccented German and is an excellent recording. I think he has a terrific voice. You must have heard him in London so if you don't find him too 'English' in tone, I would start here.

You've got some great music to explore!

duncan
Posted on: 06 December 2002 by herm
Matthias Goerne in the Winterreise is not too bad either. (I agree with the above: to me Dietrich Fisher-Dieskau's lack of subtlety is as unbearable as an achey breaky itch.)
Posted on: 06 December 2002 by Norman Clature
Nothing to add in terms of the pieces that are worthy of anyones attention however, for what it may be worth I can suggest some specific recordings that I own and enjoy immensely.

  • Brandis Quartet - The Late Chamber Music for Strings (Nimbus NI1770) (lovely natural sound to the recording)
  • The Lindsays - String Qunintet - (ASV CD DCA 537)
  • Beaux Arts Trio/Grumiaux Trio - The Complete Trios (Phillips 438 700-2)
  • Volodos - Solo Piano Works (Sony SK 89647)
  • Hagen Quartet/Andras Schiff - Trout Quintet and Moments Musicaux D780 (the latter being serene solo piano music) (Decca 458 608-2)


In fact this has inspired me to bang The Trout on the system and very fine its sounding to. Good on you.

Cheers

Norman
Posted on: 06 December 2002 by onlythat
is one of my favorite Schubert things. But, some say this cycle by th lesser known though larger voiced Gura is even lovlier. The greatest voice to have done this cycle is inarguably Fritz Wunderlich, however his interpretations may not be as heartfelt as some.

David
Posted on: 06 December 2002 by onlythat
Radu Lupu's impromptus are fantastic-- so subtle and self-effacing-- only Schubert remains.

David
Posted on: 06 December 2002 by Peter Litwack
IMHO, no one ever sang "Wintereisse" or "Die Schöne Müllerin" as convincingly as Gerhard Hüsch, although, being from the 30s, the sound is a bit "historical". Ah, but what a voice, and what a musician!

Also, I second Todd's recommendation of Artur Schnabel in the late piana sonatas (don't forget about the magnificent Sonata in D, D. 850 - Schnabel really gets this one right), as well as Kempff, especially in the great Sonata "Fantasia" in G, D. 894.

The Impromptus, (all three sets - Op.90, D. 899, Op. 142, D. 935, & the Three Impromptus for piano, called "Drei Klavierstücke", D. 946) are not to be missed, again with Schnabel, or if you can find it, Walter Gieseking.

If you like this stuff, you might also want to check out a couple of the late works for piano duet, like the Fantasia in f minor, D. 940, and the Grand Duo Sonata in C, D. 812. Then there are all the miscellaneous dances written for piano, which are quite lovely. I always liked his last piece, "Der Hirt auf dem Felsen" (The Shepherd on the Rock), D. 965, with piano and clarinet, especially as sung by Elly Ameling accompanied by Jörg Demus on hammerflügel and Hans Deinzer on clarinet. Or if you really want to go "old school", try to find the Erna Berger recording. She had a beautiful voice.
Posted on: 07 December 2002 by throbnorth
Thank you everybody, for such an avalanche of invaluable advice. I've made copious notes and will gradually work through as many suggestions as I can with the help of trusty Fulham record library, before I begin to lay out hard cash.

I'm pretty well covered for the symphonies, but that bargain Boehm box looks just the thing to fill in the gaps & augment the versions I already have. I'm a bit wary of box sets for unfamiliar repertoire, no matter how august or cheap they are. They have a habit of sitting on the shelves looking daunting, reproachful and slightly contemptuous of the human lifespan [I can see the Hurford Bach organ set doing just that as I type] and have learnt that for me the way in is by individual discs, and then when I have some sort of handle on the stuff to go for a complete survey which complements & illuminates what I've already bought, even if I never get round to doing it the justice it deserves. Therefore it looks like some late sonatas to start with, Lupu, Perahia, or Kovacevich and maybe eventually get the Kempff. Same approach with other areas of the repertoire.

As for lieder, I have to make the appalling confession that except for the orchestrally smothered Strauss / Mahler variety, I hate it all. I get exasperated when people make the same inane judgement about opera so know this is entirely my fault, and to my credit I have tried really hard [bought some, even been to the odd recital] but as yet to no avail. However, I confidently expect some sort of epiphany eventually and when that happens I'll now know where to start.

Thanks for warning me off Fierrabras. Not being well known or popular sometimes doesn't mean anything in opera [e.g. all that fantastic obscure Donizetti] but in this case it seems it does.

throb
Posted on: 08 December 2002 by DJH
As I dedicated Schubertian, I can't add much to the above recommendations in terms of repertoire, but we all have different opinions on the performances. I think that Brendel is sublime in the late piano sonatas - his D960 being one of the best in the catalogue, for example - and the sound quality is better than the DG Kempff, which sounds very dry on my (non-Naim) system.

The late string quartets are also wonderful, and I rate the Quartetto Italiano on Philips as amongst the best versions available. Avoid the Melos DG box set of the complete quartets. There is much better playing elsewhere.

When it comes to the lieder, a good introduction would be a tenor such as Pregardien in the Goethe or Schiller poems. The Graham Johnson / Hyperion edition is one of the cornerstones of my music collection.
Posted on: 09 December 2002 by David Hobbs-Mallyon
All the above is just wonderful music - you are in for a treat throbnorth.

One of the very first classical discs I ever bought (completely accidental choice - it was cheap) was the Quintet, with Casals, Tortelier, Stern etc. I don't know if it due to being my introduction to Schubert, or whether the performance is THAT good, but I've never found a version that I can live with to compare to this. Just seems to have a balance, simplicity and melodic flow that I miss in other recordings despite the boxy mono sound. Any suggestions?

David

[This message was edited by David Hobbs-Mallyon on MONDAY 09 December 2002 at 10:12.]

[This message was edited by David Hobbs-Mallyon on MONDAY 09 December 2002 at 10:13.]
Posted on: 09 December 2002 by throbnorth
David - yes I probably am. It's not that I haven't heard a reasonable amount of Schubert over the years, more that I had formed the idea of him as being generally pleasant with a good ear for a tune etc., but not a heavyweight [lieder excepted - even though I don't care for it I've read enough to believe that this was his particular genius and thus felt a bit locked out by my own inadequacies of appreciation]

Dug out my old Trout yesterday and could see where my preconception started from. It's very nice of course, but not something that plumbs great depths [not that music needs to, of course].

It was the trancendent quality of the quintet, which has something of the feeling of late Beethoven quartets, that floored me and made me realise that I should maybe revise my opinion. So to begin with, at least it's going to be late, late, late and then work backwards.

throb
Posted on: 09 December 2002 by herm
Way to go, throb. If you're not into Lieder, forget the Lieder.

One thing that struck me after posting previously, is what an incredible resource Schubert is. I mean, the best recordings can be had at budget prices (Beaux Arts Trio; Italiano, Lupu etc). So for the price of four Harry Potter seats you're happy for the rest of your musical life.

Herman
Posted on: 11 December 2002 by throbnorth
Herman, happily that seems to be the way with most things. I can't think of very much of a classical persuasion at full price I might buy anymore - the odd opera or vocal recital maybe, but for core repertoire I am happy to be spoilt for choice at mid or bargain price.

throb
Posted on: 22 December 2002 by DJH
I don't normally talk about sistem issues, as the hardware should be there to serve the music, but I have done two things recently; (a) put the equipment and speakers on Mana supports, and (b) replaced the valves in the pre-amp circuit with Telefunken.

The changes have been quite dramatic - much broader and deeper soundstage, clearly articulated bass and a liquid treble. OK, that's enough about the sestim.

Two discs have enabled me to draw these conclusions, both from the Hyperion Schubert lieder edition - volume 6, Rolfe Johnson / Nocturne theme, and volume 24, A Goethe Schubertiad. The Rolfe Johnson disc represents lieder singing at its most sublime - his voice is absolutely effortless, especially in the hypnotic Des Fischers Liebesgluck and beautiful Abendstern. The Schubertiad disc includes Schafers Klageslied, in which the arch form seems to enable words and music to combine to allude to shades of meaning that are not immediately apparent. Mark Ainsley's voice is superbly intense.

So, if you want to treat yourself this Christmas, you could do worse than try the two discs above. Have a good holiday, everyone!