Does the build up to Christmas start too early?

24th of December seems about right to me.
I really think that the 1st of Dec should be the earliest, all though the "12 days of" would add to the festivities I think. This year it seemed a bit later than of late before ads etc started to seriously appear.
Just as well it's not a religious holiday eh?

Howard

Considering that office bashes start earlier and earlier every year, it doesn't seem too early to get decorations up on 1st December. Ours are going up next week as my lot are going away for a weeks holiday as soon as school breaks up and will otherwise miss them. Personally I can't stand decorations up after the event and they come down way before 12th night.

quote:

Originally posted by BigH47:
Just as well it's not a religious holiday eh?

From a traditional Christian perspective, the Festival of Christmas begins at the fall of darkness on 24th December. (Christianity inherits from Judaism the day beginning at nightfall, not the break of light.)

Four Sundays before Christmas Day, the Season of Advent begins, the first season of the Church's year. For most of this, the attention is not on the Babe of Bethlehem, but on reflection on the coming again of Christ in glory, and on the presence of Christ in the world.

The 'gear change' and beginning to head towards Bethlehem comes on 17th December, and is marked by a series of special 'Antiphons', looking for the coming of Christ - O Sapientia, O Clavis David, O Rex Gentium, etc. (Together these are incorporated into the hymn 'O come, O come Emmanuel'.) But still, the Festival of Christmas does not begin until the fall of darkness on 24th December.

The Christian Season of Christmas has a number of feasts within it, which are part of the unfolding of the meaning of the birth of Christ.

Christmas Day & Octave (a "week of Christmas Days") - the Nativity of Christ;

First Sunday of Christmas - The Holy Family;

1st January (the 8th or Octave Day of Christmas) - kept either as the Circumcision/Naming of Jesus, or as Mary, Mother of God;

6th January - Epiphany (the coming of wise men with their three gifts; this is the major feast in the Eastern Orthodox Christmas);

Sunday following Epiphany - the Baptism of Christ.

The Baptism of Christ celebrates the launch of his public ministry, therefore it is generally accepted (in the Western Church) as marking the end of the Christmas Season.

However, there is a good case to argue that the Christian Season of Christmas in fact extends to 2nd February, the Presentation of Christ in the Temple, 40 days after birth. Also known as Candlemass because of the candle procession that is a traditional part of the celebration.

In our house, the Christmas tree will go up on 17th December (that 'gear change' day in Advent) and decorations - to both tree and house - will be added each day until fully decorated for the fall of darkness on 24th December. The decorations will be in place until the feast of the Baptism of Christ.

And before Christmas, we shall be celebrating the Season of Advent.

As a final point, for the Christian, in its deepest sense EVERY day is really Christmas Day, just as EVERY day is in fact Easter Day.

James

Ask not why christmas starts so early, ask why it starts at all. What a load of Humbug!

I am well pissed off at the nonstop carols muzak being played in my local co-op in NOVEMBER!

xmas is not even regarded as a religious festival anylonger by most people its just another money spinning marketing process to rip off the general public.
saw a programme about easter and the guy asked 100 children aged around 13/15 to describe what an easter egg symbolised ? around 40% said chocolate - says it all really !!

Exactly, when any fule no it is an ancient Saxon festival for the fertility goddess, Eastre.

Yes, Easter has nothing originally to with Christianity but was a festival to welcome in the spring and future crop growing season, symbolised by the fertile egg. It's "Oestre" actually. Easter eggs have come about as gifts following the Faberge eggs.
The Christian festival..well, you can see the parallel and how it came to be "Christianised".
That's okay though, there is room for everyone.

She was called a variety of names Rasher, mine as well as yours.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/easter1.htm

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Good link Bob. Interesting stuff in there.

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Xmas 2008 has already arrived for me. I have had my first enquiry to supply products to BHS.

The length of the run-up to crimbo reflects the fact that not everyone does al their shopping on the 24th December. It all begins in mid/late November when the fireworks have stopped and the Remembrance Sunday poppies are in the bin. For me it kicks off with the arrival of the Frankfurt Christmas Market in Birmingham. If you live not to far from Brum I recommend it for the food (bratwurst, red sausage on a roll with mustard, yum!) and bier (they have Einbecker pils, Paulaner hefeweiss and Kolsch on tap) as well as the gifts. Open till 8 then you can go round the Bullring open till ten.

In my view yes, but then, as Steve points out it is a commercial festival, rather than a religeous one for the great majority in UK nowadays.

This not entirely the case in some other countries, especially some of the Roman Catholic ones.

Kindest regards from Fredrik

It is both commercial and religious. The commercial aspect ends where the religious one begins - on the 24th December.

Violent Christian video game set to be Christmas bestseller

"On one side, it is necessary to rediscover the reality of God and public importance of religious faith, on the other to assure that the expression of faith is free, devoid of fundamentalist degeneration, capable of firmly repudiating any form of violence," the pontiff said.

Well that rules Christianity out then.

20th Dec seems a good place to start:

quote:

Yule.
The longest and most popular festival in the heathen calendar, starts at sunset on December 20th, it being called Mother Night, the longest night of the year. The holiday continues for twelve nights (ending New Years day at sunrise). It’s a time when all the fruits of labour for the year can be enjoyed and also a time when everybody is freed from the usual household chores and all do their share at everything, but it’s mainly a time for family, those with us and those gone before us. It is said that during these twelve nights that the barriers between Midgard and the otherworlds are lest numerous and it’s a special time for re-establishing old bonds.

Seems very amiable this yuletide thing.

Funnily enough, although I am not of the above faith, I do posses a viking-stylee drinking horn... think I'll drag that out on krimble day

I recently saw an interview with the Fox News (stirrers if not spinners) pundit Bill O'Reilly who was quoting some place in the US which had banned the use of Red and Green for Christmas decorations. He said that this was eroding American traditions, but infact it was Coca Cola who introduced the Red Father Christmas to the US (and the World) and I guess the widespread use of the colour for the season! So I guess a tradition can be commercial rather than historical.

Regards
Geoff

quote:

Originally posted by acad tsunami:
"On one side, it is necessary to rediscover the reality of God and public importance of religious faith, on the other to assure that the expression of faith is free, devoid of fundamentalist degeneration, capable of firmly repudiating any form of violence," the pontiff said.

Well that rules Christianity out then.

Acad, are you capable of drawing the distinction between, say, reasonable, peaceful law abiding Muslims and the violent zealots often (and probably rather inaccurately) termed 'fundamentalists'?

I would hope I can.

If you can do that with regard to, say, Muslims (and of course even the allegedly peaceable Buddhists have exceptionally violent elements), then why not for Christians?

You do seem to have a particular downer on Christianity as a faith and, without any apparent discernment, regard the abberation (eg the rather dangerous 'Left Behind' fantasy) as the mainstream view, rather than what it is, the abberation.

James

quote:

Originally posted by JWM:
[QUOTE]

[QUOTE] Acad, are you capable of drawing the distinction between, say, reasonable, peaceful law abiding Muslims and the violent zealots often (and probably rather inaccurately) termed 'fundamentalists'?

I would hope I can.

I would hope so to but the whole issue is not as the media would have us believe. The war on terror is largely a phoney war. Much so called Islamic violence is sectarian and political. Palestians fighting against the apartheid and genocide inflicted upon them by the Israeli/US axis of evil is not jihad it is fighting for their very survival. The thing that most amazes me about muslims around the world is their incredible restraint in the face of the appalling crimes against them. Yes, there are some looney elements but they are small compared to the looney Christian elements in the US.

quote:

If you can do that with regard to, say, Muslims (and of course even the allegedly peaceable Buddhists have exceptionally violent elements), then why not for Christians?

what exceptionally violent elements? Give us the details. Are you seriously seeking to compare 2 millenia of wholesale slaughter of millions in the name of Christianity to undefined and virtually TOTALLY non-existant Buddhist violence?

Compare this with the history of Christianity and crusades and persecution and inquisition and intolerance and forced converstions and support for countless wars including Iraq.

quote:

You do seem to have a particular downer on Christianity as a faith and, without any apparent discernment, regard the abberation (eg the rather dangerous 'Left Behind' fantasy) as the mainstream view, rather than what it is, the abberation.

I dont know what you mean by 'left behind'. Certainly all sections of Christianity, Islam an Judaism are an abberation insofar as they peddle lies and deceit. Jesus is the son of God and he died on a cross to save our sins (the mere belief in him will mean we are saved from our sins - but ONLY if we believe otherwise we can sod off)and that he rose on the third day etc. What a load of utter tosh. 'Faith' is belief in something for which there is no proof. There is no proof, there never has been and there never will be. World without end. Amen.

Thyank you, Acad, for your typically considered, well-thought out, cogent response...

I take as an indication of your comments' value to considered debate the fact that you have no idea about 'Left Behind', though it was you who posted the link in the first place!

The Buddhist violence of which you seem wholly ignorant - you ought to read the quality newspapers more, chap. Most recently there was widespread coverage of the violence of rampaging Buddhist monks earlier this year...

You ought also to read a few history books.

Without defending at all violence carried out apparently in the name of any religion (which is so patently an abberation of the faith, and publicly acknowledged as such) I have to ask in what cause has most blood been shed and misery spread? The atheistic regimes of Nazism and Stalinism.

As for your 'otherwise you can sod off' comment, that's not the God I believe in either!

Why is it - here in this thread and elsewhere - that you feel the need to be so plain bloody rude? Are you incapable of speaking reasonably to another human being?

B & T possibly? Anti-West and anti Christian to boot. Otherwise an entertaining and informative poster.

James,

I note you have not said where these so called rampaging Buddhist monks came from or what rampaging actually indicates but I hardly think that this rampaging, whatever it was, can be mentioned on the same page as the long history of Christian violence.

As for the need to read a few books how about these for staters:?

According to Richard Dawkins in his new book ‘The God delusion’ - ‘The god of the old testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, un-forgiving control freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully. Those of us schooled from infancy in his ways can be desensitized to their horrors’.

Who can say he is wrong? If the bible is the unimpeachable true word of God then God is hoisted by his own petard!

Dawkins actually goes out of his way to state that his book does not seek to criticise Buddhism and Confucianism. A wise move.

‘In The Name of God: Violence and Destruction in the World’s Religions’ a book by Michael Jordan contains not one single reference to Buddhism but there is chapter after chapter detailing the violent legacy of Christianity.

In Ken Ward’s book ‘Is Religion dangerous?’ we see that the overwhelming baulk of the book concerns the many negative aspects of Christianity, Judaism and Islam. Having given a very brief overview of Buddhism he says ‘…it is hard to think of a set of beliefs that is less likely to be harmful, and is more likely to motivate altruistic behaviour and promote psychological well being.’

‘The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason’ by Sam Harris – Has nothing but positive comments about Buddhism but has chapter after chapter about nonsense in Christianity.

‘God against the Gods: A History of the War between Monotheism and Polytheism’ by Jonathon Kirsch has no references about Buddhism (other than mentioning the wanton destruction of Buddha statues in Afghanistan) but has plenty to say about the history of evil perpetrated by Christians.

‘The Dark Side of Christian History’ by Helen Ellerbe – The view that the ‘Religious Right’ asserts that Christian values will save the world from its rampart sins given the history of the Christian church is patently ridiculous - the arrogance of these people who at best are just plain ignorant and at worst down right evil beggars belief.

Imagine a modern day doctor travelling back in time to the Middle Ages and applying for a license to practice medicine and being examined by the leading doctors of the day and informing the doctors that the best cure for infection was penicillin (of which the time travelling doctor has tons of) and being told that leaches and a concoction of rats spleen and frogs liver were the only cure and that the doctor was not fit to practice medicine. The doctors of the middle Ages may well believe they are doing what is right but they would be ignorant and wrong. Such is the legacy we have in the teachings of the church. At best they are well meaning ignorance and at worst downright evil. When I listen to well meaning but ignorant fools like the present Archbishop of Canterbury saying ‘I don’t know, I don’t know, I don’t know’ in answer to every polite (and simple) question I feel like the modern day doctor surrounded by the doctors of the Middle Ages.

The authority of Christianity lies in the alleged truth of the Bible as being the word of god and by personal experience.

The authority of the bible is overturned by the bible itself, specifically the old testament and as for the experience of Christians you can not find one Christian who has experienced anything not experienced by a practitioners of Judaism, Islam, Hinduism or Buddhism therefore Christianity has no special claim and yet it maintains this smug superiority even in the face of the most relentless indefensible criticism and refutation.

You may like to read ‘The new frontier of Religion and Science: Religious Experience, Neuroscience and the Trancendent – by theologian John Hick to see that Christianity has no claims on uniqueness of experience, far from it.

Arguments which allegedly offer an ontological ‘proof’ for the existence of god, such as St. Anselm’s proof, are a philosophical joke and can be effortlessly refuted. Epicurus is not so easy to refute.

There are better even more profound refutations of the existence of god than Epicurus which I have considered at length and thus I can conclude that if there is no God then there is no son of god. I think this is a logical conclusion for me. Others can believe what they like.

All Christianity really offers is a sense of community, a good sing-along once a week, jumble sales, whist drives, coffee mornings and something to feel smug about. This is hardly a valid USP. I think that devout monastic Christians who devote themselves to prayer can become spiritually advanced but a weekly trip to church to sing ‘Onwards Christian Soldiers’ will get no one anywhere. The elderly go to church out of fear motivated by the need for some spiritual insurance and the young only go to get happy clappy and to seek some certainty in an increasingly uncertain world blissfully and woefully ignorant that there is any alternative.

Whereas I am very happy if someone is a devout Christian or devout Muslim if being devout they adhere to a strong moral code but I am increasingly concerned that mainstream Christianity and mainstream Islam is on a collision path. It is this fear of an increasingly unstable and threatening world on the one hand and complete smug ignorance of ANY alternative to problems that stokes the fires of religious hatred and intolerance and in this we find that certain elements of Christianity are the perfect mirror image of their Islamic fundamentalist brothers. Unholy war is inevitable. You can be sure of one thing in this uncertain world however, and that is this: - Buddhism will play no part in these wars.