New caps?

Posted by: redeye on 06 November 2001

Have been told that re-capping is necessary after 8 to 10 years of use. Have also been told that this only applies to 250, 135 amps and the power supplies that normally go with 'em. I have a 180 which is nearing its tenth birthday, should I get it done or not necessary?
Also do the pre-amps require any of this sort of attention?
Cheers
Redeye
Posted on: 06 November 2001 by Manu
All units need recapping after 8 to 10 years to keep them sounding well.
The most importants are AMPS (all) and Power Supplies (all, even NAPSC).
It is also good to recap preamps and it should cost a lot less than amps.
Generaly what we call recapping is more than just changing capacitors (electrolitics and tantalum). Good dealers, Naim and NANA verify the all unit:
reset bias and supply voltages, change fatiguing transistors and regulators, verify connections and testing the unit.
If any Naim unit is more than 8 years, send it for a rejuvenation. You will rediscover your system.

This not only apply to NAIM, but to all HIFI unit. Only NAIM, i think, insist on it.

Emmanuel

Posted on: 07 November 2001 by bam
I'm bemused by the image of a fatiguing transistor or regulator. How do you spot one? Have its legs bent under the strain so that its body is lying flat on the circuit board? Perhaps stress lines have formed on its forehead. razz
Posted on: 07 November 2001 by Manu
May be the word is not the best.
English is not my first language.
But you have understood what i meant.

When testing amps, i verify the current gain of each output transistor, i they are within the limits, ok; if not, i change them.
A transistor can have been over-stressed (by short circuit, defective speaker...). It still works, but its current gain has fallen. It creates an unnecessary stress on the preceding stage.

The legs are still strong, but the mind is not commanding them fast enough. wink
I desolder them, line them on a track, standing on their leads, with a new transistor. I say GO. The last one at the arrival line is killed, the second last is recycled (Good enough for many other brands).
If an old one is faster than the new, i test it on steroids, if negative i keep it for my own amps, if positive it goes in a Krell. wink

Emmanuel

[This message was edited by Manu on THURSDAY 08 November 2001 at 05:22.]

Posted on: 07 November 2001 by redeye
OK then. What sort of sonic clues should I be looking for. I mean, how do you know when time is time?
What does a grumpy old 180 sound like compared to a nice flash new one??????
I am confused

Redeye

Posted on: 08 November 2001 by Jay
Hi redeye

Can't answer your question but why don't you give Chris Murphy a call @ Real Music in Wellington. He's the NZ Naim importer and a top bloke, he'll tell you all your need to know.

Did you buy the 180 second hand? It may have been re-capped already.

Jay

Posted on: 08 November 2001 by redeye
Guys the sucker sounds fine so I'm almost certainly spinnin' my wheels here. Ta for the advice. Think I'll stick with the original plan of getting a 102 to replace the 92
Has anyone else discovered the Prophesy album by Nitin Sawhney?
Rocks

redeye

Posted on: 08 November 2001 by Manu
Whatever your decision concerning your 180, go with the 102 or better. It will be a major improvement over the 92. Or go with a used 72+HI for now and for an 82 when finance allows.

Changing caps gives more speed, more background details, cleaner bass. IMHO more music.

It can be more fatiguing with new caps (they need at least a one month run in period). Who says listening music is a passive occupation. Driving a Porche is more fatiguing than driving a Cadillac, but ....

Emmanuel

Posted on: 08 November 2001 by David Dever
If you examine the oscilloscope traces close enough at various loads and test signal frequencies, you can get a pretty good idea about the condition of many different parts of the amplifier in question:

- reservoir capacitors
- power supply board coupling capacitors
- input transistors
- voltage gain transistors
- output transistors
- tantalum capacitors;

other conditional faults are often discovered by trial and error (i.e., training a service technician to avoid placing the wrong components in the wrong placeā€“the dark side of experience).

Dave Dever, NANA

P.S. We replace output transistors in pairs, anyway...

Posted on: 08 November 2001 by bam
Dave,
How do you go about selecting output transistor pairs?
BAM
Posted on: 08 November 2001 by David Dever
The output transistor pairs are unmatched (though NA 001 transistors are select to begin with, across a variety of parameters), as are the BYF406/FR105 diodes across them.

The differential input (unselected) transistor pairs are matched in-circuit, by type, on all Naim power amplifiers.

Dave Dever, NANA

Posted on: 08 November 2001 by Jay
Redeye

Prophesy's the second album, yes? I've got both of them and perfer the first "Second Skin", check it out if you dont' have it.

There's something really special about upgrading a pre-amp. The 102 will be a huge improvement over the 92 and for me the 102 was much better than the 72. Not everyone would agree with me on that one.

The good thing about the 102 (or bad - depending upon your budget!) is that it gets better with the digital power supply and a Flatcap or Hi-cap.

I have a 102 with Hi and 180. I don't know where you live (NZ's a pretty small place razz ) but if you're in Wellington you're welcome to come along for a listen or test something out.

Maybe you could help me optimise my Credos!

Jay

Posted on: 08 November 2001 by redeye
Jay,
Many thanks for the invite! I'm in ChCh myself. I have heard people say that a 102 is only OK until you Hicap and Napsc it. Theory being that a 72 on its own has a 'nicer' sound. Did you own a 72 prior to the 102? If so your views mucho appreciated........
Oh, I will check 'Second Skin'

redeye ( I hate spending money on hifi ) :-)

Posted on: 08 November 2001 by Manu
You hate spending money on Hi-Fi!!!
The answer to your problem:
Buy in one shot cds2/xps+52/sc+500+NBL, it will hurt, but only once.

Emmanuel

Posted on: 08 November 2001 by redeye
If you knew me mate you'd know that even a system as killer as the one you describe wouldn't keep me sweet for too long! Give it 6 months and I'd have to activate the sucker.
Oh my God it never ends does it......
And Manu, where the hell is the turntable??????

Cheers
redeye

Posted on: 09 November 2001 by Jay
It's bloody good more like!

And I'm not just saying that because I invested a bucket load of cash on it. Well I am actually!

Jason H - friendly question. Don't you ever wish that you could just say "damn it" and say the most Vukish (I'm copyrighting that by the way) statement? Instead of having to be so, "well it's got it's good points...".

It must be a little bit of a pain having a public persona at times.

Jay

Waiting for the next poster to say, "well if you had an 82 and......" (Steve T I'm watching you razz)

Posted on: 09 November 2001 by Jay
quote:
Jay,
Many thanks for the invite! I'm in ChCh myself. I have heard people say that a 102 is only OK until you Hicap and Napsc it. Theory being that a 72 on its own has a 'nicer' sound. Did you own a 72 prior to the 102? If so your views mucho appreciated........
Oh, I will check 'Second Skin'

Second Skin is $45 bucks on Smokecds.com - worth it though.

I'll email you on my 72 / 102 experience - gather I just remove the _'s?

Jay

Posted on: 09 November 2001 by Manu
Redeye,

And Manu, where the hell is the turntable??????

You already have it, isn't it?

Emmanuel

Posted on: 09 November 2001 by redeye
Jay,Ta that would be appreciated. Concerning the address....
Lose the spaces
Add another M at start
and .net not .co

I'll look forward to it :-)

redeye