The great Church debate!

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Originally posted by Andrew Randle:

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Originally posted by Mike Dudley:
Possibly allied to the way that it "cherry picks" the bits of it's preferred ancient text that fits in with current secular ethics, but ignores the unpleasant and unnacceptable bits, for instance; the killing of gay people for being "abinations", and so forth.

If you are implying that the Bible is an inferior form of text due to this passage, you first need to understand the context and bigger picture.

God effectively put the Jewish people "through the mill" (particularly when they were in the desert) to mould them, set an example and set the scene. Any slight deviation from God's will and what He saw as being acceptable was harshly punished.

The bigger picture sharply contrasts this with God's forgiveness of us when the process of being "born again" (a change of heart and attitude) occurs.

Andrew Randle

One man's religion is another man's Belly laugh.

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Maybe... Religion has not inspired me, i sometimes feel angry that i've been brain washed and that i have had to spend most of my life sorting through this fairy tale tosh that was forced upon me at a young age.

Stephen, I'm sorry you've had a bad experience. I accept that terrible things have been done in the name of religion, and would not wish to defend any of them.

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Originally posted by Mike Dudley:
PS: Also, I note no structured or reasoned counters to my previous arguments regarding differences of "theologies" in support of different "gods" and the way A. McGrath ignores this point and others...

Nor to my point about a disciplined academic approach to dealing with ANY ancient texts...

You know, on reflection, there's about as much evidence for Alexander the Great as for Jesus, though the evidence for Jesus is of better quality and nearer to the date...

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Originally posted by droodzilla:
Stephen, I'm sorry you've had a bad experience. I accept that terrible things have been done in the name of religion, and would not wish to defend any of them.

No need to be sorry. Perhaps i'm getting a little too personal and find it difficult to hold it back sometimes...
There is always two sides to the coin and it's easy to tar everything with same brush when you have had experiences with certain things. The church has done many great things. Just my biased point of view, so sorry from me too.
I don't feel i have anything positive to contribrute here really, so...
In respect to the OP & others here i shall now keep out.

Regards, steve

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You know, on reflection, there's about as much evidence for Alexander the Great as for Jesus, though the evidence for Jesus is of better quality and nearer to the date..

Just how many coins with Jesus' face on them. How many direct contemporary written references for Jesus. Alexander the Great has all this , and a city named after him.
Please again where is this contemporary evidence for Jesus? Saying it is doesn't make it real.

The Alexander the Great analogy is certainly a poorly-chosen one. There is much statuary of Alexander, a deal of it definitely contemporary, so we know what he looked like.

Although, there was a programme about the Turin shroud on telly tonight that cast doubt on the veracity of the 1980s carbon dating tests that ruled it a fake, and allowing for the possibility that it may be genuine after all. In which case Jesus actually looked like one of those walking tree ent people things in the second lord of the rings movie. Scary.

I'm not going to take other part in a discussion about religion here. Surely you people have the opportunity for enough arguments about immovable viewpoints, at home, and with people you actually know. Especially at Winterval / Christmas / Seasonal Pagan Festival*


*delete as applicable

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Originally posted by Stephen Tate:
Maybe... Religion has not inspired me, i sometimes feel angry that i've been brain washed and that i have had to spend most of my life sorting through this fairy tale tosh that was forced upon me at a young age.

Also I am sorry to hear about your bad experience. Those who often force Christianity on someone often fail to understand the religion in the first place.

Fairy-tale tosh - renowned historians like Lucian and Luke himself were not known for writing fairy tales. Such a yarn could easily have been quashed by the Romans producing a body from the guarded tomb. 11 out of 12 Disciples were put to death for a fairy tale?

Quite a fairy tale that manages to intricately satisfy 300+ predictions (stretching over 1000's of years) in a short space of Jesus' lifestory...

Andrew Randle

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Originally posted by rodwsmith:
Although, there was a programme about the Turin shroud on telly tonight that cast doubt on the veracity of the 1980s carbon dating tests that ruled it a fake, and allowing for the possibility that it may be genuine after all.

Yeah the shroud is pretty interesting, particularly as it is asserted that the carbon dating was taken from repaired cloth.

Interesting too that the shroud measures exactly 8 x 2 Philaeterian cubits and the blood stains match those on the Sudarium of Oviedo.

Regarding proportions, a couple of interesting pieces of work have produced 3D models. See here and here on this page

Even so, I am not willing to pronounce anything regarding this - and even it if were proven, it should not be used as a diversion from God himself.

Andrew Randle

As Christianity was illegal for its first almost 300 years until the Edict of Milan in AD313, it is hardly likely that there will have been very public things like statues etc before then...

And as for coins, what did Jesus say about 'rendering unto Caesar'...?!

Texts. My point is that the written evidence for Christ is at least as good (more contemporaneous and more of it) as for Alexander. And if the complaint is levelled against Christ that most of the written evidence is 'biased', written by his 'fan club', then who the heck do you think wrote most of history? The biased fan club. Written history is the story of the victor and the powerful.

Good morning. Interesting to see that my approximation of how the religious mind works, being confirmed...

Also, "God did this, god did that" etc.

And... still no evidence, just a lot of hearsay.

The indoctrination of children into religious dogma is a terrible thing - stunting any further development in independant rational thinking and producing adults who do not seem to be able to follow the simplest reasoning processes.

You might think it a simple thing, when told that a particular type of "god" (out of the many available in the human god supermarket) exists, to expect a request for evidence to be provided. This never seems to happen.

And that's because....

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to expect a request for evidence to be provided

Apologies for that appalling usage of English - "... to expect a request for evidence to be met".

Bacchus...we love you. Burp....

Mike, you just don't seem capable of "getting it"

There is no proof that "god" exists, or doesn't exist. Its called "faith" and applies to "believers", "agnostics", "atheists" etc etc alike. You (and a lot of other people) simply have "faith" that there is no god. Others have faith that there is a god, yet others have faith that we simply don't know which way to jump. Ok, some people have had "experiences" that support their faith, or demolish it. None of these "experiences" (IMHO) stacks up to scientific investigation (yet).

Old Dork squirms around with "low probability" and other mumbo-jumbo and psudo-science, brainwashing our kids towards his narrow-minded, sad old world. He's a disgrace.

Cheers

Don

I can't respond to your description of Quantum Physics as being a "psudo" ( sic) science and the rest of your repetitive posts and non-responses to requests for evidence of your assertions, plus your insistence that "non-existence" needs proving, without giving in to the sort of infantile gibes that you direct against a recognised world authority in his field.

So I won't.

That is all.

It seems to me that it is not possible to prove either the existence or non-existence of God (Allah). How can one prove either way the existence of something beyond comprhension and not subject to any laws of nature?

Nor do I feel that it can be fairly suggested that to not believe in something which is un-provable is as much an act of faith as to believe in something un-provable.

It is my opinion that all believers (of which I am one, albeit an unconventional convert to Islam) could do worse than to approach this matter from the humble standpoint that there is more logic in not believing in the existence of a God and that we may have erred in taking the less logical path – too often the greatest evil is done by the un-hesitant religious fanatic.

As for the subject matter of the original posting – I do not attend church on Christmas Day (in view of my preferred faith, this is not surprising), but I do seek to attend a Christian carol service every year, primarily because of the beauty I so often hear in the music performed.

Oh, at a very slight tangent, can any of us truly explain in provable, scientific terms all that we get and feel when we listen to whatever music means the most to us?

I hope you all had a merry Christmas and I wish you all a happy new year.

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It is my opinion that all believers (of which I am one, albeit an unconventional convert to Islam) could do worse than to approach this matter from the humble standpoint that there is more logic in not believing in the existence of a God and that we may have erred in taking the less logical path – too often the greatest evil is done by the un-hesitant religious fanatic.

That, in my experience, is a first. Please accept my applause.

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Oh, at a very slight tangent, can any of us truly explain in provable, scientific terms all that we get and feel when we listen to whatever music means the most to us?

I see, on a simple google search; "Emotional response to music", that there is a wealth of scientific study results available. There may be something there to interest you.

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a recognised world authority in his field.

Not impressed. You really must try harder.

Am I supposed to be impressed by the "quantum physics" mention? Even well respected scientists are struggling to come to terms with the odd bits that don't fit the known universe. Science has its place and uses, but proving the non-existence of "god" and what preceded the "big-bang" (or whatever) is just a tad too difficult.

Cheers

Don

Further to the Shroud of Turin, here is a link I just found with a VERY interesting set of five videos covering a double lecture on some more recent studies into the shroud: http://hectv.org/epvideos.aspx...ID=57&VideoSeqID=746

Andrew Randle

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Originally posted by Don Atkinson:

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a recognised world authority in his field.

Not impressed. You really must try harder.

Am I supposed to be impressed by the "quantum physics" mention? Even well respected scientists are struggling to come to terms with the odd bits that don't fit the known universe. Science has its place and uses, but proving the non-existence of "god" and what preceded the "big-bang" (or whatever) is just a tad too difficult.

Cheers

Don

What I must or must not do is not up to you, pal.

Personally, I'm impressed with science that does make demonstrable discoveries leading to practical progress (planes fly) as opposed to religions that don't seem able to offer any sort of evidence for their multitude of different pronouncements of the impossible (magic carpets don't).

As to whether you are "impressed" or not by anything at all, to be frank, I really don't care one way or the other.

Happy New Year, anyway.

A Dionysus festival on Lesbos anybody?

Me first; I'll bring offerings to Bacchus....hic...

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I'm impressed with science that does make demonstrable discoveries leading to practical progress (planes fly)

Well, at least we are agreed on that!

Happy and prosperous new year to you and all the contributors to this thread.

Cheers

Don

Mongo, what time does the festival start ?... count me in Brrrp, s'cuse.

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Originally posted by Howlinhounddog:
Mongo, what time does the festival start ?... count me in Brrrp, s'cuse.

At last! A fellow flippant non-carer.

May the mighty gods (small g, naturally) smile upon you.

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What I must or must not do is not up to you, pal............As to whether you are "impressed" or not by anything at all, to be frank, I really don't care one way or the other.

Exactly my sentiments as well. Which is why, in general, I ignore demands eg from the likes of yourgoodself or thegenialBigH etc etc that I provide references, cut&paste, proof etc etc. I decide what I will or will not post, and how I will or will not respond.

Cheers

Don