The great Church debate!

quote:

Effect on SOME others, perhaps. Most certainly not ALL others.

....goes without saying, IMHO, but good of you to point it out nonetheless. (I disagree with the "perhaps" bit)

Cheers

Don

quote:

Originally posted by mongo:
It certainly does. Anything and everything.

In the same way that i find astrology, voodoo, magic crystals, and other entirely irrational human preoccupations lamentable.

As a species we are not sane enough to be able to afford such absurdities in our outlook on the world and it's magnificence.

What will kill us all off will be a head in the sand approach to our ailments engendered by the mental state such superstitions require.

Deeply sadly, there appears nothing to be done. The problem is intractable, the rationalists and apologists are deluding themselves. Once irrationality takes a firm grip,... that's all she wrote....

This post brought me back in to say: I completely agree!!!!!!!!

Why believe in something that you have never seen and never will see

Go back in time with a clipper lighter - You could become a fire god

Thunder and lighting is the gods getting angry with you boy, nothing to do with electricitry!

Cheers, steve

I have watched the small acts of kindness perpetrated by those in my family who have faith.

They are too fine to find fault with.

I'll leave it at that.

It's nothing to do with that they are just really good people regardless of faith?

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
I have watched the small acts of kindness perpetrated by those in my family who have faith.

They are too fine to find fault with.

I'll leave it at that.

Hi Mike.

A non sequitur i'm afraid.

The idea that acts of kindness depend on faith is very odd, Many of us with no faith deliver acts of kindness due to our own sense of humanity not in the hope of some sort of supernatural reward. I am much happier with the idea that acts of charity come from the heart not from the fear that the giant Pasta God in the sky is watching.

quote:

Originally posted by FlyMe:
The idea that acts of kindness depend on faith is very odd, Many of us with no faith deliver acts of kindness due to our own sense of humanity not in the hope of some sort of supernatural reward. I am much happier with the idea that acts of charity come from the heart not from the fear that the giant Pasta God in the sky is watching.

Lol.

What's the non sequitor here? That people of faith are capable of acts of kindness?

In UK, certainly, the majority of those personally involved in voluntary charitable service are people with religious faith.

The Christian Church has also been responsible for the origins of universal education, health care and social care.

quote:

Originally posted by JWM:
What's the non sequitor here? That people of faith are capable of acts of kindness?

In UK, certainly, the majority of those personally involved in voluntary charitable service are people with religious faith.

The Christian Church has also been responsible for the origins of universal education, health care and social care.

The non sequitur is to align acts of goodness/ kindness with faith or religious belief.

I refer you to FlyMe's excellent riposte above.

quote:

Originally posted by JWM:
What's the non sequitor here? That people of faith are capable of acts of kindness?

In UK, certainly, the majority of those personally involved in voluntary charitable service are people with religious faith.

The Christian Church has also been responsible for the origins of universal education, health care and social care.

Yes this is true but it has nothing to do with faith. Alot of this is contributed by third party organisations that happen to be on the same boat who genuinely care about people and not god aswell.
Midwivery being a great example...

Regards, steve

Something seems to have gone wrong in the USA with a very powerful church many of whose members seem to be fighting tooth and nail against universal health care.

I do agree though that the Chrsitian Church has been responsible for the origins of education, health and social care - although I suspect that these would have come about even if there had been no church.

Why do you believe that acts of kindness from people of faith don't come from the heart?

In my experience - and this Forum is no exception - those who choose to criticise religious faith, and those with religious faith, speak with the authority of the ignorant. If there were things I knew nothing about, I wouldn't have either the gall or the b*lls to pretend I did.

Peace on Earth, good will towards everyone.

I love Jesus, i believe he was a great guy! I would of questioned him about saying he is the son of god though. The trouble that has been caused since....

Each to their own.
In my view there are 2 types of people in this world - good & bad and in my view it is as simple as that. It does not matter if you have faith in god or not.

I hope i do not come over as authoritive because that i certainly am not. I'm not clever enough to be so and i would not want to be anyway.

Coming across as direct and simple is best in my views, it cuts out all the S*ite.

regards, steve

Trying not to get sucked in, but I must challenge the view that belief in a flying spaghetti monster or fairies is somehow equivalent to belief in God - and the belief that this supposed equivalence is a reductio ad absurdum of religious faith. Most serious philosophers and theologians who have written on faith have been very careful to distinguish between the idea of supernatural beings or spirits, and the idea of (an) absolute being which provides a "foundation" (whatever that means) for all other beings (and, arguably, for morality). Kant is especially clear on this, and states categorically that there is neither evidence for, nor any rational need to believe in the former. There is no rationally compelling evidence for the existence of (an) absolute being either, but Kant maintains it is a reasonable thing to hope for.

Dawkins is a fine scientist, but his blindness to this sort of nuance makes "The God Delusion" almost worthless as a serious critique of faith. Kant had one of the most brilliant minds of all time, and I almost get vertigo when I reflect on the ambition and sophistication oh his philosophy.

For the record, I believe there is a rationally defensible core to all of the great religions, but I don't go for all the supernatural mumbo-jumbo. Yes, I'm unorthodox

quote:

Originally posted by JWM:
Why do you believe that acts of kindness from people of faith don't come from the heart?

In my experience - and this Forum is no exception - those who choose to criticise religious faith, and those with religious faith, speak with the authority of the ignorant. If there were things I knew nothing about, I wouldn't have either the gall or the b*lls to pretend I did.

Why do you presume to know what i know nothing about? We have never met.

I presume your 'faith' is offended by my opinions and your rather caustic reply is the response of one who needs religion and can't bare others to voice opinions contrary to your own.

This is the single greatest flaw and irritation of religionists.

One man's religion is another's belly laugh.

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
Peace on Earth, good will towards everyone.

To you too my friend...peace!

quote:

Originally posted by mongo:
One man's religion is another's belly laugh.

Who said God didn't have a sense of humour?

My, but you're an angry fellow. My faith, such as it is, isn't at all offended by your opinions, misguided as I think they might be.

quote:

Originally posted by Simon Perry:
This part of the forum is really living up to its name by the looks of this thread; padded cell indeed.
We appear to have plumbed new depths of crass ignorance when an ex-holder of the Simonyi Professorship - aimed at furthering the public understanding of science - is accused by an ill-informed and delusional forum member of peddling "pseudo-science".

Actually, I believe he was accused of peddling "psudo science"...

quote:

Originally posted by Don Atkinson:

quote:

an ill-informed and delusional forum member

i normally ignore prattish, personal remarks such as yours, but as a concession, on this occasion...

You obviously haven't watched the Dork on tv or watched the effect he has on others. So you don't know what you are talking about. Probably best if you just fade away, prat.

Cheers

Don

Ah.

Alles ist klar.

quote:

Originally posted by tonym:

quote:

Originally posted by mongo:
One man's religion is another's belly laugh.

Who said God didn't have a sense of humour?

My, but you're an angry fellow. My faith, such as it is, isn't at all offended by your opinions, misguided as I think they might be.

Hi. I have no idea why you think i may be angry?

Just an impression gained from your posts.

That's the problem with text communication;
god gave us faces with which to speak.

God didn't give me my face - 5 000 million years of evolution did that - if it was god I am sure he could have done a better job!

quote:

Originally posted by FlyMe:
God didn't give me my face - 5 000 million years of evolution did that - if it was god I am sure he could have done a better job!

I think Paul's reply was tongue-in-cheek, er, face.

Pretty much leaves the responsibility for the results to us or our parents, or our parent's parents or ....... or perhaps, an ill-timed piece of cosmic debris.

Jeff A