Moving from compact disk to hard disk -newbie questions
Posted by: Thomas Breding on 21 September 2010
My current system is CD5/HICAP2/HILINE/NAT05/282/NAPSC/200/FC2/ALLAE/HEADLINE(+ SqueezeBox for internet radio) and I have for a while been thinking about adding a new source.
A while ago I got offered a really good price on a CDS3 but as I felt like it might be time to move from CD to something else I instead started looking for other source options and moving from CD to "the next level".
And just when I started looking, along came the NDX making things even more complicated...
Computer environment:
I run a wifi network at home with iMac, MacBookPro and iPad. All my ripped music is now in iTunes in AAC-format.
Asking for input and advice from all you digi-wizards out there, I have some questions that you will probably find very basic. But my guess is that a lot of other Naim owners are asking the same questions:
Question nr 1:
If I got it right, my three basic source options from Naim are
1) HDX (pros: built in ripping, nice display, built in hard drive)
2) NDX (plays music from network via UPnP, internet radio, tuner option)
3) UnitiServe with DAC (built in ripping, built in hard drive, DAC gives options for other digital sources)
Did I get that part right? Any other pros or cons?
Question nr 2: Which of the above will give the best sound quality, BEFORE any upgrades?
Question nr 3: Will sound quality be better using one of the Naim ripping options than ripping on one of my Macs?
Question nr 4: I guess that no matter what alternative I choose, best thing is to add a NAS and potentially switch to a cable network?
Question nr 5: Is NDX the only option if I want to be able to change pre amp volume via the App on an iPad/iPhone?
Question nr 6: Which format should I use for re-ripping my CD´s? (I told you I was a newbie!)
Question nr 7: If I go for NDX and a NAS, will the NDX "find" the music or must I install something (some kind of UPnP software) on my Mac?
Probably forgotten some obvious questions, feel free to add. Hopefully this tread will turn into a "Digital Source for Dummies".
Thanks in advance!
/Thomas
Posted on: 21 September 2010 by james n
Thomas, it's worth taking a look at the Linn option too unless you are completely set on the Naim option.
James
Posted on: 21 September 2010 by Thomas Breding
It's complicated enough staying within The Naim offering...
Seems to be A LOT of options outside of the Naim offering (including just buing the DAC and use my SB!) but I am aiming to stay with Naim.
Posted on: 21 September 2010 by james n
Good luck
Posted on: 21 September 2010 by DanielP
quote:
Originally posted by Thomas Breding:
Question nr 6: Which format should I use for re-ripping my CD´s? (I told you I was a newbie!)
For a ripping strategy, you might want to have a look at
http://www.computeraudiophile....tegy-and-MethodologyThe article recommends storing an archival copy as FLAC, because it's a widely accepted non-proprietary standard, supports metadata, and is lossless. If necessary, if a player requires it, FLAC files can be converted into other formats such as WAV or AIFF.
-- Daniel
Posted on: 21 September 2010 by jlarsson
Some NAS boxes come with a UPnP-server you can use.
I tried controlling the 252 with the RedEye app/hardware for iphone and it seems to work fine. The hardware is a little unit that listens to your WiFi net and sends out IR.
When you use a Naim ripper and Naims MusicStore database you automatically get the metadata nicely sorted out (especially with classical music).
I like the HDX a lot but it has one disadvantage. You cannot use the internal DAC with anything else and there is no internet radio. Last night I tried AirPlay (available with the upcoming iOS4 for iPad) with some internet radio apps (like NPR and the one from SR) on the iPad and it worked just fine wireless to an Airport Express, but if you want a better DAC (than the one in the Express) you need an extra external DAC. But you already have the radio sorted by the Squeezebox. I have been using a Sonos for the radio - but will probably use radio from the iPad a lot more now.
One advantage of a NAS box is that you can upgrade computers as you like.
Personally I see UPnP as just an extra layer to mess things up but I have only tried it with some iPad apps (didnt work well), some OSX apps (nope) and the Uniti (which worked o.k.). But then I was not very motivated to make it work either and the very vocal Linn-brigade seem to like it so I guess its o.k. But I would look at the two Naim-ripper solutions first for the nice way they handle metadata.
Posted on: 22 September 2010 by Geoff P
Naim is not the only one to handle metadata well. dBPoweramp ripping software does an excellent job with FLAC and gets what you need in the way of tags into WAV rips aswell.
Decent NAS boxes now are offered with enough computing power onboard to install UPnP media server software on them. I have never had any problem with discovery of devices on my network via UPnP and I-pod/ pad software talks easily to the Linn products which bolt straight onto you network, for example ( open source software helps).
One thing I would avoid is any use of DIGITAL volume control, it messes up the audio. Has to be via a good old fashion ANALOG volume pot. IMO.
regards
Geoff
Posted on: 22 September 2010 by Thomas Breding
Thanks for all replies so far.
Daniel; wow, that was a lot of reading but thanks a lot for the link!
Geoff: Pls clarify if using the NDX connected to the 282 (if that even works???) means DIGITAL volume or if it actually controls the volume of the 282 in some kind of analog way.
Questions still unanswered:
-do the three alternatives give the same sound quality?
-will my wifi network be OK or is cable the way to go?
Posted on: 22 September 2010 by Phil Harris
quote:
Originally posted by Thomas Breding:
Geoff: Pls clarify if using the NDX connected to the 282 (if that even works???) means DIGITAL volume or if it actually controls the volume of the 282 in some kind of analog way.
The NDX i-app will operate the motorised volume pot of the preamp in exactly the same way as using the remote does - no digital volume control involved at all.
quote:
Originally posted by Thomas Breding:
-will my wifi network be OK or is cable the way to go?
I would always recommend wired Ethernet connections over wireless anytime - there is far too much wireless traffic out there and it's all generally interfering with itself. There's no substitute for the bandwidth and quality of service of a dedicated piece of copper...
Phil
Posted on: 22 September 2010 by Plinko
Phil, will the app also work for Nait XS volume or does one have to go to the preamp range for this feature?
Posted on: 22 September 2010 by Phil Harris
I can't remember offhand which of the integrateds have an IR / RC5 input on the back panel but if the NaitXS has then it *SHOULD* operate that too.
Phil
Posted on: 22 September 2010 by Guido Fawkes
quote:
Computer environment:
I run a wifi network at home with iMac, MacBookPro and iPad. All my ripped music is now in iTunes in AAC-format.
Add hiFace and Naim DAC to which is nearest your hi-fi and if you need more room put your music on firewire directly attached storage disk - you can share the iTunes library if your music is the other Mac. AAC is not he best format because it loses info, I use AIFF. With solid state storage getting cheaper when the time is right you can move your library to that and you'll have a transport with no moving parts.
I'm delighted with the results. Must admit I've no interest in remote controls so for me having a MacBook adjacent to my Naim system works.
Posted on: 22 September 2010 by Plinko
quote:
Originally posted by Phil Harris:
I can't remember offhand which of the integrateds have an IR / RC5 input on the back panel but if the NaitXS has then it *SHOULD* operate that too.
Phil
under Connectivity, it says Trig out RC5 in spec sheet and i didn't understand what "trig out" means (sorry for off topic everyone)
Posted on: 22 September 2010 by Plinko
ROTF, are you using a NAS and if so, which one and what server software? Or, do you just have a firewire hd attached directly to your Macbook?
Seems like far few options for an Apple based system but I like Apple products.
Posted on: 22 September 2010 by Guido Fawkes
Don't have NAS or use UPnP. Only Ethernet is in my small home office.
Network is Juniper SRX Internet router with Apple Airport for wireless LAN.
In my Naim system, I use MacBook Pro with firewire drive/hiFace/Naim DAC/555PS.
In office, PowerMac/USB/Chordette Gem/Linn CMS/Kef Eggs with Sub (I know it could be better).
iTunes sharing lets me play music from one Mac on the other.
iTunes suits as list mode lets me see artist and album, which is all I need.
Late night listening is CDX2/Stax ear-speakers.
Posted on: 22 September 2010 by Simon-in-Suffolk
quote:
Originally posted by Thomas Breding:
-will my wifi network be OK or is cable the way to go?
Thomas - Wifi will work and work reasonably well *if* you have a strong wireless signal showing at your receiver and there is no or very little traffic - and certainly no other uncompressed audio or video streaming traffic on the wireless LAN - but there are many ifs and buts. So I say the best approach is always go wired Ethernet and use network switches to connect the LAN and not hubs. Many consumer internet routers have switches built in.
For what its worth I am a professional network designer and come across network sizing, congestion and jitter issues regularly.
Simon
Posted on: 22 September 2010 by Thomas Breding
Ok, as I have Apple TV that will sometimes stream video I guess cable is the way to go. Too bad, nice to get LESS cables, not more...
Posted on: 22 September 2010 by Simon-in-Suffolk
Thomas, as you say wired is best. If you really wanted trouble free wifi and you have an existing wifizone that either has severeal devices on it or is streaming other media then an option is to get another wifi access point and connect it (bridge it) to your LAN; ie plug a cat lead from your switch to it. You need to run the Wifi network in Basic Service Set (BSS) mode. This will set up a separate dedicated wireless zone with its own SSID that you can use for your Naim streaming. The next thing is to check the channel number in the wireless AP and ideally check it's different by at least 6 from your original wifi access point to eliminate overlap of the wireless channels. I am assuming here you have no strong wireless networks from neighbours etc you can see. If this makes no sense to you then best go with wired Ethernet.
Simon
Posted on: 23 September 2010 by Thomas Breding
Posted on: 23 September 2010 by pcstockton
Thomas,
If you can find anything else that is suitable I would look into it.
The Drobo is kind of gimmicky.
-Patrick
Posted on: 23 September 2010 by Frank Abela
Thomas,
You have lots of options to play with but there is little point doing any of this unless you take care of the rips you have first. You mention using AAC and iTunes. These are great formats for an iPod but for high performance you're going to need to re-rip using WAV, AIFF or FLAC. Furthermore, iTunes is possibly one of the worse rippers. DBpoweramp has been getting a lot of favourable comment lately because it's easy to get good results with it. EAC (Exact Audio Copy) is supposedly better but more difficult to configure for best results.
In my (limited) experience FLAC doesn't sound as engaging as WAV but I'm not entirely sure how you hold tags for WAV files since WAV doesn't support tags at all.
In terms of storage, a NAS drive is usually preferable to leaving computers on all thetime, and they tend to be quieter too. If you MUST have wireless, it's best to wire the NAS to the router directly if possible so the leg that transfers the data from the NAS to the router is wired and guaranteed bandwidth. The best remains wired connections everywhere of course.
There are two forms of HDX and UnitiServe. One form is with the built in hard drive(s) so the ripping is done to a local disc in the machine. The other form is with a solid state device built in. The ripper uses this as a buffer before storing the data on the NAS. This technique should guarantee data delivery to/from the NAS.
Hope this helps...
Posted on: 23 September 2010 by Geoff P
quote:
In my (limited) experience FLAC doesn't sound as engaging as WAV but I'm not entirely sure how you hold tags for WAV files since WAV doesn't support tags at all.
Frank
It IS possible to have tags in WAV files when you rip with dBPoweramp.
Also I have found with dBPoweramp installed if you go to a ripped album folder, and hover the mouse over a track you will get a listing of existing tags. Also if you select all the tracks in the usual way and right click somewhere in that selection you get a menu up which includes the option to 'Edit ID Tags'. This works for WAV files aswell as FLAC. You can select quite a range of tags to edit or add to all tracks that way. The only pain is you have to add album art individually one track at a time but it can be done fairly easily with patience.
regards
Geoff
Posted on: 23 September 2010 by Graham Russell
Geoff
Off topic - are you playing wavs or flacs on your ADS?
The other night I compared flac to wav on the KDS and prefered the presentation of flac. This goes against all previous testing I've done with various software players on PCs where wav always sounded better.
Graham
Posted on: 23 September 2010 by Geoff P
Graham
With 44.1/16 rips off CD I chose to rip to WAV. Comparing with FLAC on the ADS I think wav holds together best a usefully loud listening levels where FLAC seems to take on a slightly hard edge.
FLACs are what you get when you download 96/24 and 192/24 and they sound damn good. I have 'ripped' a few LP's at 96/24 in WAV and then converted to FLAC. Comparing those I think there is nothing in it at the higher resolution.
regards
Geoff
Posted on: 23 September 2010 by Graham Russell
Geoff
Thanks for the update.
I will do some more testing for 44.1/16
Graham
Posted on: 23 September 2010 by DanielP
quote:
The other night I compared flac to wav on the KDS and prefered the presentation of flac. This goes against all previous testing I've done with various software players on PCs where wav always sounded better.
I don't think that's surprising, whether one lossless format sounds better than another depends on the player, there's no inherent reason to think one or the other, compressed or not compressed. I find Computer Audiophile pretty convincing, though, in preferring FLAC for an archival format. It's fairly trivial to convert in bulk FLAC files to something else.
I'm currently ripping/downloading to FLAC and playing FLAC on MBP in Amarra V2.0 playlist. In general the sound is fine, but I do run into Amarra bugs - skipping part of the first track, and occasionally "don't let your deal deal deal go down down down CRASH." If that doesn't get fixed soon (support for FLAC is a new feature in Amarra), I'll probably try AIFF.
-- Daniel
