Richard Dawkins planning to have Pope Benedict arrested over 'crimes against humanity

It is the stock in trade of actors to convince people even when they are not convinced themselves. I have no idea if Fry is convinced about anything, but I like him as an entertainer. I might like him as a person if I knew him personally, but I don't. I only know one actor, Linus Roach ...

The whole business of institutional abuse [of children] is abhorrent, but it was quite widespread in all sorts of situations from the village work-house, to boys public schools, to borstals, to ... well yes it happened in Church circles as well, I have no reason to doubt.

And it was routinely institutionally covered up.

What I find sad is that some people seem to spend a lot of energy suggesting that because of human failings - terrible and despicable failings - that an institution such as the Roman Catholic church is any better or worse than any other institution run by fallible humans.

In no way would I defend the individuals who commit such acts. I do speak with experience, painful though it is to say that, but I forgive [within myself], and carry on. I cannot waste my life raking over the coals. Done is done, and may such people make their peace for themselves. I am not the judge.

To give a clue, after three long and tortuous years of contemplation and certain doubt of myself, I shall attend my first Catholic Mass next Saturday, before an interview with my local RC Priest in Saint Johns. I visited the Priest to be sure of just what is the best course of action. I was made immensely welcome, as a human, and not simply as a recruit.

This whole situation regarding what has passed by is tragic, but not the reason to doubt what the church is about.

Nothing run on a daily basis by mankind is perfect, and sometimes the imperfections are terrible, but that should not be a reason to give up on what is the main message, which is love and forgiveness.

Sorry that was serious wasn't it?

ATB from George

And at the risk of getting a severe smack from Richard I suggest you check this.

TomK, that was in some respects quite sick.

But these things need to be said

And satire is as good a form as any.

Dear Tom,

I never follow links unless there is a clue about it before hand. Sorry, but it is like watching TV without the Radio Times. Not something I do. Last Radio Times I bought in 2002, and I scrapped the TV at the same time.

ATB from George

Sorry George you're trying to defend the indefensible. You're probably my favourite person on this board. Your knowledge and enthusiasm for music, your happiness to educate those of us less technically knowledgeable (but no less enthusiastic), I love it all. I love your wonderfully quaint and almost other worldly manner. But you're off beam here.

It is the pre-rogagative of humans to be wrong. The point is to strive for kindness, forgiving, for generosity - all IMO of course - and we all have to plough a furrow. The Priest actually asked "Why?" Why I would make such a move. And my reply was because I hoped it was the right thing. I am sure I shall become no worse and quite possible a much better person for it.

A bigot I shall not become.

It really is time I was asleep, but tomorrow [excepting the birthday of a beloved friend intervening] perhaps we continue this?

Best wishes from George

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
Dear Tom,

I never follow links unless there is a clue about it before hand. Sorry, but it is like watching TV without the Radio Times. Not something I do. Last Radio Times I bought in 2002, and I scrapped the TV at the same time.

ATB from George

That's a good point. On a board like this one person's risqué banter is another's gross offence.

It's a spoof American TV ad for a product called Priest Off. It involves a young lad limping home from church and his parents remark "oh no he's been raped by father Flannigan again". His mother produces an aerosol can of Priest Off etc. If this offends you I suggest you don't bother.
Apart from this unpleasant crap, I love reading your posts. You're a genuinely fascinating, knowledgeable person. One of the board's treasures.

Dear Tom,

Dobra noc [dobra nots], Sleep well from George!

Tomorrow, unless gross quantities of Polish wodka intervene!

quote:

Dobra noc

Goodnight George. Nice having a few words with you. And don't expect much more on this topic from me. Apart from anything else I may be on shore leave for a day or two after this link.

quote:

If we ever elected a thesbian, I would be on the next ferry out. That is all I can say!

He is an actor! He is paid for sounding genuine! He is quite possibly good enough to take many people in much of the time ...Not me though. I laugh at his humour, but to believe he believes a word he says would be naive IMO. He has well paid script writers. As a politician he would be a complete puppet.

George

Sounds exactly like a politician to me!

By ignoring what happened and forgiving(in myself) is just what allows molestations to continue.

Village work houses? What century are you living in?
Public schools re-known for it's discipline it's a parents choice to send a kid there.

A church has a duty of care and it is not expected that those in it's charge are abused, so forgive and forget = a continuing problem.

If a social services group fails it's duty of care, heads roll, even top officials, should this be any different in a major religious sect?

BigH47

I think George has made a perfectly coherent point which I totally agree with.

People confuse the ethics of religion with this unfortunate episode.

My own take is that Christianity is a major force for good because its teachings are basically good.

However I agree that this episode is appalling and something needs to be done about it and done fast.

However that is no reason for comdemming christianity per se.

Regards

Mick

quote:

My own take is that Christianity is a major force for good because its teachings are basically good.

My own take is that x-inanity is a force for bad because it's teachings are basically vile gibberish. As in:

"A rib-woman made from a mud-man gave in to a talking snake that lived in a magic tree. Later, a dead Jewish Zombie had himself slaughtered to remove the evil bit inside you that he put there in the first place".

Barking.

Dear Mike [Dudley],

I would call that a wild caricature, but you are welcome to your view, and your expression of it causes me no offense even if it would be my opinion that you have missed the point somewhat, about what the thrust of Christianity really is and its continuing effects - even cultural effects for non-Christians living in what is in the UK still a very largely Christian based society.

I do not see this as a point of argument, so much as a profound difference of view-point between us, likely to be beyond the possibility of our ever coming to an agreement about it.

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Dudley:

quote:

My own take is that Christianity is a major force for good because its teachings are basically good.

My own take is that x-inanity is a force for bad because it's teachings are basically vile gibberish. As in:

"A rib-woman made from a mud-man gave in to a talking snake that lived in a magic tree. Later, a dead Jewish Zombie had himself slaughtered to remove the evil bit inside you that he put there in the first place".

Barking.

Mike that's as succinct as I've ever heard it put. Wish I'd thought of it.

I may steal it for use elsewhere and when. Hope you don't mind.

Paul

George

I've noted previously that some people seem to have no problem with making deliberately offensive comments about the sincerely-held beliefs of other people.

I'm slightly puzzled why they feel it acceptable to be so rude about religion ( and by implication, the Religious ) when I expect they'd would scream from the rooftops should anyone make similarly puerile comments about the Gay community for example.

Some people are religious, some people are Gay. NO big deal either way, IMO. Mick is quite right; Christianity in the UK is almost universally a force for good - Salvation Army, for example. No doubt there are bad people who happen to be Christians, but its somewhat simplistic to say that this makes Christianity bad.

I hope you are well.

Regards

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by mongo:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Dudley:

quote:

My own take is that Christianity is a major force for good because its teachings are basically good.

My own take is that x-inanity is a force for bad because it's teachings are basically vile gibberish. As in:

"A rib-woman made from a mud-man gave in to a talking snake that lived in a magic tree. Later, a dead Jewish Zombie had himself slaughtered to remove the evil bit inside you that he put there in the first place".

Barking.

Mike that's as succinct as I've ever heard it put. Wish I'd thought of it.

I may steal it for use elsewhere and when. Hope you don't mind.

Paul

Be my guest.

WOOF, WOOF!

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Lacey:

rude about religion ( and by implication, the Religious )

I'm not so sure it follows. There are a lot of reasons why sane and reasonable people hold barking-mad beliefs. These include the psychological battery that the religious parents inflict on their impressionable children.

To call people on their beliefs is not inevitably the same as attacking the person (although admittedly they often happen in parallel).

One reason some people are motivated to challenge sky-fairy beliefs is that they feel those beliefs are harmful to society and human well-being as a whole.

I'd disagree, WIC.

Then again, I suspect that you tipped your hand when you said

"There are a lot of reasons why sane and reasonable people hold barking-mad beliefs. These include the psychological battery that the religious parents inflict on their impressionable children."

Kind of indicates your view of Religion and the Religious; not totally impartial.

Just seen your amended post; I find it hard to see how the concept "love your neighbour" can be harmful.

Don't conflate Religious extremists with Religion.

Now Newsweek is printing studies that show that priests are no more likely to abuse than rabbis or zoologists.

LOL

JWM,

I don't think Dawkins is objecting to the Pope, or priests, abusing children. He is mainly concerned with the CEO (ie Pope) covering up the abuse, or dithering.

Zoologists (what is Dawkins - a biologist?) presumably get their CEO straight onto these things and discipline/sack the offender(s), regardless of the effect this has on the zoo.

Cheers

Don

PS I think I read somewhere in the past two or three days that the Scout movement in the USA has been fined and is facing a civil prosecution for $$$$millions for historic child abuse.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Don Atkinson:


Zoologists (what is Dawkins - a biologist?) QUOTE]

Dawkins is a ethologist and evolutionary biologist. Ethology is a sub-topic of zoology. Therefore Dawkins is (inter alia) a zoologist. Dawkins detractors (such as me)often refer to him as being a zoologist.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Lacey:
I'd disagree, WIC.

Then again, I suspect that you tipped your hand when you said

"There are a lot of reasons why sane and reasonable people hold barking-mad beliefs. These include the psychological battery that the religious parents inflict on their impressionable children."

Kind of indicates your view of Religion and the Religious; not totally impartial.

No-one is impartial. we all view things from our personal frame of reference.

Religion is demonstrably irrational, yet it is understandable why many hold the beliefs in spite of this.

The religious can be, and often are, kind and great people. They would still be kind and great people without religion, however. Religion brings little, and takes a lot.

quote:

Originally posted by winkyincanada:
[QUOTE]

Religion brings little, and takes a lot.

'Religion' helped this man sacrifice himself in a worthy cause. He would not have felt the slightest pain.



'As he burned he never moved a muscle, never uttered a sound, his outward composure in sharp contrast to the wailing people around him'.

What is your interpretation?

Thích Quảng Đức - monk