Richard Dawkins planning to have Pope Benedict arrested over 'crimes against humanity

quote:

Originally posted by winkyincanada:
No-one is impartial. we all view things from our personal frame of reference.

Religion is demonstrably irrational, yet it is understandable why many hold the beliefs in spite of this.

The religious can be, and often are, kind and great people. They would still be kind and great people without religion, however. Religion brings little, and takes a lot.

Of course we all have our personal frames of referance but its not true to say that nobody is impartial. Simple example; I am aware that France has a thriving football league, but I do not care who is doing well. I am totally impartial in that regard, likewise I am totally impartial towards Religion and the Religious - unlike some of the oddly vociferous anti-Religious people I've seen posting here. ( not you, you would seem to be anti-Religion but you can keep calm about it. )

Religion may well be demonstrably irrational to you, but I'm sure that followers would take exactly the opposite view. I'm also not totally sure that Religion adds nothing to the bahaviour of people; in fact, I'd suggest it actually does. I would also disagree with your contention that Religion brings little, and takes a lot. I think that, overall, it is a force for good. Naturally there are bad / evil people doing things *in the name of* Religion; but that does not make Religion per se bad.

M

Good thing for Sniper that wasn't a video...

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Dudley:
Good thing for Sniper that wasn't a video...

As far as I know no video of that particular self immolation exists. If one did I may well have posted a link together with an appropriate warning so people could chose whether they wanted to watch it or not. Other vids of other monks do exist.

quote:

The religious can be, and often are, kind and great people. They would still be kind and great people without religion, however. Religion brings little, and takes a lot.

Disagree very strongly with that - I know people who have changed considerably due to religion / encounter with God (eg, (1) was imprisoned for GBH before becoming a Christian. He is now a great, gentle guy, married to a female vicar - (2) another got himself into a huge financial mess. Became a Christian - and motivated by his faith now heads up a debt advice charity that helps thousands of people a year in gross financial difficulties - not only in UK but also overseas. History also records various individuals from many years ago who, believing them to be inspired by God's care and concern for the poor and downtrodden, set up amazing bodies / works that still exist today - eg, Barnadoes, William Wilberforce who fought for the abolition of slavery, the Rowntree foundation. That's just off the top of my head - I also have friends who gave up about 12 years of highly paid work in the UK [he would have been a consultant in the NHS and she a GP] to run a hospital in Bangladesh, providing medical care and medical education to a very poor country).

Many are motivated by the teachings of their religion / God to behave VERY differently (unfortunately, that is sometimes a negative influence). If I did not have a faith in God I would be considerably more selfish than I am (I ain't perfect!)

Cardinal hailed bishop for hiding predator priest: report

'BISHOPS NOT REQUIRED TO INFORM POLICE'

abuse cases

'The 82-year-old pope did not speak out about the accusations in recent Easter Week ceremonies and even his latest comments refer only to the Church's unspecified "sins," without referring to the abuse scandals directly'.

(Not much of a confession then)

Penitent Pope - 'Forgive me Father for I have sinned'
Priest - Yes, I see, well give me the yummy details.
Penitent Pope- Sorry Father but that's all you need to know.


However...

Vatican puts abuse rules online to quell critics.

However....

'..blamed media outlets needing stories to counter sinking sales, as well as hostility to the Church. He predicted that "more cases will emerge because the campaign will continue, but eventually readers will get bored"'.

So, when the noise dies down they will go back to the old ways?

More here Top cardinal: 'Bishops, protect pedophile priests'

The last link is in Spanish but and in it Castrillion states that he had the approval of the dreadful Pope JP2.

Cardenal Castrillón: 'Envié la carta tras mostrársela al Papa'

Edit: Just found something in English..

Cardinal: late pope backed priest-shielding

quote:

Originally posted by living in lancs yearning for yorks:

If I did not have a faith in God I would be considerably more selfish than I am..

I'm surprised by this. Are you kind because god tells you to be kind? Are you kind because you fear hell? What motivates you? How does your faith make a difference? Do you not think that being kind is a great thing, regardless of what you believe with respect to a "creator"?

I am generally kind and altruistic, but I ascribe a zero probability to the existence of some supernatural being that may be looking over my shoulder.

quote:

I am generally kind and altruistic

Oh? I don't wish to judge but wonder what this means? What have you given or sacrificed of yourself for the well being of others? Selective kindness is one thing (you helped a little old lady across the street for a boy scouts badge) and altruism are two very different things.

You are either altruistic or you are not and I personally do not believe one can be truly altruistic and have such low opinions of certain groups of people at the same time. Secondly, I can't imagine anyone demonstrating altruistic behaviour overnight, from self will alone or on their own. It is a long, committed road to even approach this territory and your lifestyle and attitudes will reflect this clearly.

Best Regards,
Doug

quote:

Originally posted by Florestan:


and have such low opinions of certain groups of people at the same time.

I don't have a low opinion of people who believe in the various sky-fairies. There are good reasons why otherwise rational and smart people believe these things. It is not their fault.

But I do have a low opinion of the beliefs themselves. They are ludicrous. I also have a very low opinion of the self-serving organizations that are the "religions".

you wont be going to heaven then.

quote:

Originally posted by winkyincanada:
I don't have a low opinion of people who believe in the various sky-fairies. There are good reasons why otherwise rational and smart people believe these things. It is not their fault.

But I do have a low opinion of the beliefs themselves. They are ludicrous.

Well, that is one of the most condescending offensive set of comments I have seen in a long time:

1. Your use of the phrase "sky fairies" suggests you look down on believers as stupid - it is a phrase designed to belittle those you are talking about
2. "It is not their fault" - condescending, I believe
3. "the beliefs themselves ... are ludicrous" - pretty offensive (but I'm not going to bother taking offence! )

Your comments certainly don't appear kind

You appear unable to separate the beliefs from the believers. Just think how offended you might be if I used similar language?

I am constantly disappointed at the level of crass comment spouted by many non-believers (although to be fair I've not seen it here) - many believe that they are more intelligent than non-believers, therefore anyone who believes must be stupid

"I'm surprised by this. Are you kind because god tells you to be kind? Are you kind because you fear hell? What motivates you? How does your faith make a difference? Do you not think that being kind is a great thing, regardless of what you believe with respect to a "creator"?"

I make more effort to be kind (and sometimes it takes great effort) - to some extent it is in me anyway (eg, I just don't find the falling down stairs videos / other people's misfortune at all funny) but I want to practise my beliefs more because I want to believe God will be pleased with what I do. I am made more conscious that there is a battle between fulfilling selfish desires (eg, buying the supercap that arrives later in the week ) and giving the money away. In the West we are ludicrously, obscenely wealthy (in financial terms) compared to most of the world's population - hundreds of millions survive on less than many westerners spend on coffee. Most westerners give away less than they spend on coffee - and as income goes up, the proportion of income given away generally goes down. We consider ourselves civilised whilst ignoring the great need that is all around us - locally and globally. If I did not believe in God, I wouldn't be as bothered about any of that. "Kind" is undoubtedly a good thing - but one person's kind is another's futile gesture, another's excessive sacrifice

Gotta go

quote:

Originally posted by 151:
you wont be going to heaven then.

Not so much.

quote:

Originally posted by living in lancs yearning for yorks:

quote:

Originally posted by winkyincanada:
I don't have a low opinion of people who believe in the various sky-fairies. There are good reasons why otherwise rational and smart people believe these things. It is not their fault.

But I do have a low opinion of the beliefs themselves. They are ludicrous.

Well, that is one of the most condescending offensive set of comments I have seen in a long time:

1. Your use of the phrase "sky fairies" suggests you look down on believers as stupid - it is a phrase designed to belittle those you are talking about
2. "It is not their fault" - condescending, I believe
3. "the beliefs themselves ... are ludicrous" - pretty offensive (but I'm not going to bother taking offence! )

Your comments certainly don't appear kind

You appear unable to separate the beliefs from the believers. Just think how offended you might be if I used similar language?

I am constantly disappointed at the level of crass comment spouted by many non-believers (although to be fair I've not seen it here) - many believe that they are more intelligent than non-believers, therefore anyone who believes must be stupid

"I'm surprised by this. Are you kind because god tells you to be kind? Are you kind because you fear hell? What motivates you? How does your faith make a difference? Do you not think that being kind is a great thing, regardless of what you believe with respect to a "creator"?"



Gotta go

I concur that we in the "west" are obscenely wealthy (there are plenty of obscenely wealthy people in the "east", too) and are borrowing from the future in a manner guaranteed to cause untold suffering beyond what we have ever seen. Kindness in this respect is indeed relative.

What I REALLY don't respect is the notion that we are expected to respect silly beliefs, just because the believers have the weight of numbers, and in some case violently demand this "respect". Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - but by definition, in the case of faith there is none .

As I said earlier:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Lacey:
I'd disagree, WIC.

Then again, I suspect that you tipped your hand when you said

"There are a lot of reasons why sane and reasonable people hold barking-mad beliefs. These include the psychological battery that the religious parents inflict on their impressionable children."

Kind of indicates your view of Religion and the Religious; not totally impartial.

quote:

Originally posted by winkyincanada:

quote:

Originally posted by 151:
you wont be going to heaven then.

Not so much.

you must mend your ways my son.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Lacey:
As I said earlier:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Lacey:
I'd disagree, WIC.

Then again, I suspect that you tipped your hand when you said

"There are a lot of reasons why sane and reasonable people hold barking-mad beliefs. These include the psychological battery that the religious parents inflict on their impressionable children."

Kind of indicates your view of Religion and the Religious; not totally impartial.

And as I said.... Of course I'm not impartial.

quote:

Originally posted by winkyincanada:The religious can be, and often are, kind and great people.

They would still be kind and great people without religion, however.

Religion brings little, and takes a lot.

Dear winky,

I am not going to judge the general from an individual perspective, but I will certain have not one ounce of doubt that I am not unique in my experience of life and how taking the ethos of Christianity at least seriously can give the individual the strength to face off uncivil and abusive behaviour without offering a fist for a fist, but rather to defeat evil and aggression with gentle offering of the other cheek. This does work as it leaves befudled the aggressor. It may be painful on several levels, but peace will win in the end ...

My parents were both stridently anti-religion in any of its varieties. Luckily for me my father inadvertently sent me to a school where the religious was mildly Christian, but actually very Christian in terms of ethos. The school rules banned what was generally called "sneaking" and encouraged by variously chosen sanctions behaviour that was entirely Christian in many ways. We also had two services every day at 7 am and 6 pm, as well as an additional one at 11 am in school on Sunday, or the whole school walked to our Parish Church for Matins.

My father was a financial rogue, and a physically abusive man, who thought nothing of belting his wife, or children, and had a psychological method that had it been directed to good would have been the work of genius in manipulative terms! My mother, if anything was even stranger. A creature who neither could comprehend why she should have never have started a family, or in fact that she had ever made a mistake in her life.

I quietly drew the strength from the Christian influences to face both off, and try to rub along with them with a stoicism that neither understood.

I am certain that Christianity allowed me to break the cycle of terror that my father inherited from his, and the selfishness of my mother. Now I could have failed to notice the benison on offer, and like my brother carried it on for another generation.

Please believe me, the comfort given by a faith in it and the comfort that can spring from that is something that has the potential to make all of us better people, any of us, and none of us Christian or not, I would venture is not a Saint. I know that I am not, but I could be a typical Johnson, carry on the cycle of utter family nastiness, and be much worse than I am.

I can only post as I find, but cannot leave your post unanswered for certain.

The blessing of understanding and striving for selflessness may be found in it, and it is anyone's option to accept it or not. What is sad for me, is that in not accepting it, at least some of those who do not, seem to want to demean the offer of it, and all to often though I am not directing this at you in this case, demean those who do accept it. It is not my business if any individual takes the offer up, but please do respect that fact that Christianity can and does actually give people the strength to do better and more morally useful things.

I remain grateful for the introduction to Christianity in my school days. It has given me my life ...

Best wishes from George

quote:

the comfort given by a faith

... or chocolate...

dont Christians eat chocolate then.

No, they're cannibals.

quote:

Posted Mon 19 April 2010 11:57 Hide Post
Christians and chocolate - you'll be thinking of Rev Rhiannon Jones

It's difficult to imagine a bigger waste of time.

Dear winky,

Quite a secular speech.

Of course morality can exist outside religion! Even dogs have a proven sense of fair play - a simple morality.

Give two dogs a task and then reward them with kind words. Both will [in all probability] be entirely happy with that.

Repeat the test and give both a treat of a piece of food. Both will be even happier with that.

Give two dogs a task and then give one a treat and the other kind words. See if the dog given the kind words sees this as equitable treatment!

It has been studied, and this is repeatable, and the study ran to hundreds of experiments.

But what I was talking about in my reply to you above was how one learns the much more complex sense of morality which human society is based for an equitable function.

Of course no individual in a lifetime could build such an elaborate system, and so there must be a conduit - a teaching aid - as young humans are socialized and taught how to live a sociable and moral life based on thousands of years of human building of our modern code of morality ...

Christianity can be a very effective conduit for teaching morality. It is not the only one, but perhaps one that is entirely reasonably selected even by intelligent humans, if not all, but I make no claims to be counted as intelligent ...

For me it proved a fine bastion against the secular nastiness of family life.

That was my point and the speech linked to does not address this premise from the outset.

ATB from George

Dear winky,

I am not going to expend any more effort on answering you if all you can do is post links to speeches and news reports.

An Iranian cleric saying such things has precisely nothing to do with the subject of the value of religion and everything to do with the simple fact that some people abuse the ethos of religion just as much as there are dubious politicians and over-sharp business-men, and dishonest people in all walks of life.

I know of no religion that promotes dishonesty ...

I would love to see your own thoughts in response to my carefully written replies for you, but if you cannot state them, or perhaps actually have not given the subject enough thought to have a clear personal position that allows you to write them down but only use the crutch of external links that more or less co-incide with your view, then please forgive me for not wanting to counter a list of links ...

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
Dear winky,

Quite a secular speech.

Of course morality can exist outside religion! Even dogs have a proven sense of fair play - a simple morality.

Give two dogs a task and then reward them with kind words. Both will [in all probability] be entirely happy with that.

Repeat the test and give both a treat of a piece of food. Both will be even happier with that.

Give two dogs a task and then give one a treat and the other kind words. See if the dog given the kind words sees this as equitable treatment!

It has been studied, and this is repeatable, and the study ran to hundreds of experiments.

But what I was talking about in my reply to you above was how one learns the much more complex sense of morality which human society is based for an equitable function.

Of course no individual in a lifetime could build such an elaborate system, and so there must be a conduit - a teaching aid - as young humans are socialized and taught how to live a sociable and moral life based on thousands of years of human building of our modern code of morality ...

Christianity can be a very effective conduit for teaching morality. It is not the only one, but perhaps one that is entirely reasonably selected even by intelligent humans, if not all, but I make no claims to be counted as intelligent ...

For me it proved a fine bastion against the secular nastiness of family life.

That was my point and the speech linked to does not address this premise from the outset.

ATB from George

Sorry George,

I wasn't suggesting this speech spoke to your personal circumstances at all. It was intended more generally. I am happy that you have found some comfort and guidance in christianity. I don't doubt that this occurs.

For me it is different. My sense of who I am and where I belong in the world largely comes from my relationships with others, but these are not at all based on any religious faith. I don't need to belive in a random god to help me with this. My belief is simply that the universe is logically arranged and that this arrangement is being increasingly understood by science. Can we ever fully understand it? Perhaps not - who am I to guess?

The closest I get to "spritual" expereince is the sense of insignificance I get when contemplating the true wonders of the world and of the universe. I don't need to project an artificial deity onto these wonders to find them wondorous. Least of all do I need an ancient, blind, ignorant, clumsy, self-serving and sometimes downright evil beauracracy to tell me how to live my life.

We both choose not to believe in very many gods. I just choose to believe in one fewer than you do.