Brahms' Symphonies

Dan, these will blow your socks off.

Thing is, though, that Abbado completely trumped his 2000 Beethoven BPO DG set with a live BPO set released by DG last year. So I'll hang on for a bit to see if Abbado/BPO/DG do the same with Brahms.

In the meanwhile, Dan, think about Klemperer's 1950s set for EMI.

And do consider getting Carlos Kleiber's VPO Brahms Fourth (also on DG).

Mike,

A close friend has the Abbado, I'll take a rip.

Graham,

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll try and lay my hands on them

quote:

Originally posted by graham55:
So I'll hang on for a bit to see if Abbado/BPO/DG do the same with Brahms.

I seriously doubt that will occur. The Beethoven case was special, where Abbado felt that the recordings he did shortly after the Berlin cycle (and previously released on DVD) were better. He's already recorded the Brahms cycle twice, and it looks like he's focusing on older music now.

As to Brahms cycles, my current personal favorote is Rafael Kubelik's cycle on Orfeo. He takes them slow, but they never seem to drag in the least. Somehow, it's quite the contrary. Bruno Walter's earlier, mono cycle is more vibrant than his later stereo set, and the sound is good enough not to get in the way. Sergiu Celibidache is very good in Brahms, and delivers superb Seconds in both the DG and EMI releases.


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Well, Todd, let's see. Abbado had already recorded the Beethoven symphonies twice for DG before his third DG set was released.

And his live Lucerne accounts of the Mahler symphonies on DVD (with the Second also on CD) are better than the BerlinPO CD accounts of even a few years ago, which were themselves his second traversal of Mahler for DG.

So I shall keep my fingers crossed.

Incidentally, I have Celibidache's DG Brahms set: wonderful!

G

I have Abbado/Berlin live on DVD (video!) for all the Beethoven Symphonies. These are among my favorites, and it is very entertaining to watch him conduct, and to watch the players.

The discussion has already covered my favourite available recordings. I totally second Graham's recommendation of Klemperer's cycle, and the latest release also includes a superb 1954 [mono] recording of the Haydn Variations, and a 1960s recording of the Alto Rhapsody with Christa Ludwig, which is very special.

Unfortunately two uniquely great cycles by Adrian Boult [1954, LPO, Pye Records, Mono], and the EMI cycle recorded by Felix von Weingartner [1938/40 with the LSO and LPO] have long since passed from the catalogue having both been available on CDs in excellent transfers.

These should be bought if found second hand on CD, though the old Pye vinyl is usually terrible.

Weingartner actually performed the Second for Brahms and received constructive criticism of the reading from the composer, while Boult studied with Steinbach and Nikisch gaining valuable experience of the first generation of Brahms' performing traditions from close associates of the composer.

Naturally these two cycles have a great deal going for them, and both prefigure what Klemperer would bring to the works in his very special and very clear way in the 1957 series.

All these three may come as a surprise and corrective to the frequently very slow tempi that have become more the norm since 1957. I prefer my Brahms, clean toned, muscular, and with a full momentum.

He is not well served by too warm an orchestral tone, but thrives on the orchestal timbres made by gut strings and narrow bore winds and brass.

All IMHO, of course. ATB from George

The 4th with Carlos Kleiber and the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra ( DGG 1981 ) is imo recommendable: a very vivid and rousing performance, far away from being dull.

Kind regards

Manfred

Dear Manni,

I think the timbres of the VPO have just the right effect to keep old Brahms' orchestration pristine!

I agree that Kleiber the Younger is rather fine in this recording.

ATB from George

For those who've already got a nice, well recorded 'reference' set and are perhaps getting a bit bored with it/them, try Toscanini live with the BBC SO on Testament, and/or Furtwangler - there's a nice if expensive EMI set, and a slightly better value 4 CD set on Music and Arts with some most interesting goodies, including a rather cataclysmic account of the Bb concerto with Fischer!

I've had an extended listen to the Abbado set...

Overall, it is superb! However, I feel that the final movement of the 2nd symphony is too slow, and drags (just a little). I'm missing the vitality that Karajan's 1964 gives me...

quote:

I'm missing the vitality that Karajan's 1964 gives me...

Try Gardiner or Harnoncourt; I love what NH does with the finale of No 2!

I've just got hold of this:





Live, from 2007. Looking forward to it...

Mackerras with the Scottish Chamber Orchestra is (as always) worth a listen, Mackerras makes a point of using an orchestra of the same size as that used by Brahms in his initial try-outs. I have the 1st and 2nd discs in his cycle, though I am not in a hurry to buy the disc of the 3rd and 4th.

While my favourite versions are by Klemperer on EMI, the early 1960s Karajan versions of the first 3 symphonies are very special. Whatever happened to the 4th? I bought the later (1970?) DG ADD set in order to get HvK's take on the 4th, but the first 3 do not compare well against the earlier one.

So I would suggest that you keep and treasure the Karajan discs you have, Buy the Klemperer set and then just enjoy the music.

Regards,
Ken

quote:

Originally posted by KenM:
the early 1960s Karajan versions of the first 3 symphonies are very special.

They certainly are, although Nos 2 & 3 desperately need re-mastering.

Earwicker,

My CD of Brahms Symphony No 1 appears to have been remastered in 1995. It is on one of the "DG Originals" series, catalogue no 447 408-2,

The 2nd and 3rd Symphonies are on DG 477 159, remastered in 2007.

I still have no idea what has happened to the 4th.

Regards,
Ken

quote:

Originally posted by KenM:
The 2nd and 3rd Symphonies are on DG 477 159, remastered in 2007.

Ahh, thanks for the info, Ken, I shall track this down. I've got the 1st on DG Originals, which as you say is fine, nos 2 & 3 I've got this:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Brahms...hannes/dp/B000001GBU

As you say, awesome performances but the sound is a bit crude and unpleasant; I didn't know about the later re-master.

Thanks,

Alex

Incidentally, if you want an HvK 4th, check this out:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Brahms...id=1267185853&sr=1-2

The Philharmonia sounds gorgeous, the re-mastering is... well, as masterly as the original mastering (which was a marvel for its time), and the high poetry of HvK's conception is well served by the English orchestra's lither sonority (compared with HvK's later BPO takes on the work, great though they are).

Earwicker,
Many thanks, I will keep this in mind. Do you know how it compares with the Klemperer / Philharmonia version, made in the mid-1950s and remastered in 1999? That is literally awesome - a much over-used and wrongly used word but in this case, justified.
I was listening again today to the Brahms 2nd with Mackerras and the Scottish Chamber Orchestra on Telarc. I'm hearing things in it which I hadn't heard before, so I think that his disc of the 3rd and 4th will be my next purchase.
The problem is that there is are so many great Brahms symphony performances.
Regards,
Ken

quote:

Originally posted by KenM:
Do you know how it compares with the Klemperer / Philharmonia version, made in the mid-1950s and remastered in 1999?

I haven't got a copy of the Klemperer (oh no, here comes ANOTHER set of the Brahms symphonies...!), but the HvK one with the Philharmonia ranks as one of the best ever recorded, if not THE best; it's certainly my favourite anyway. The orchestra is really well captured, and you get a refreshing sense of a group of musicians playing together who are inspired on an individual as well as a collective level. This alone puts it ahead of, say, HvK's 70s remake with the BPO - for which one could make a strong case for "definitive", even more so than the much-lauded VPO/Kleiber, which I find excellent if overrated. In a way, HvK's recording with the Philharmonia is closer to modern period performances in texture, with none of the tendency to "mush out" found in other versions, but also with none of the many irritating mannerisms that come with some allegedly period-correct performances (did Brahms really want everything so jerky, and what did he have against cantabile and legato??).

quote:

The problem is that there is are so many great Brahms symphony performances.

I know, hence I've got so many! No point worrying about it now, is there?!

Alex

Have you listened to George Szell and the Cleveland? Not the best sound but tight, disciplined and excitingly played.
Regards
Steve

quote:

In a way, HvK's recording with the Philharmonia is closer to modern period performances in texture, with none of the tendency to "mush out" found in other versions, but also with none of the many irritating mannerisms that come with some allegedly period-correct performances (did Brahms really want everything so jerky, and what did he have against cantabile and legato??).

This why recordings with a close link to Brahms such as those by Weingartner and only one generation less close - Boult - should not be locked away in the vaults, only recalled as legendary.

Both show a remarkable variety of touches in the orchestra from the most bright and clear staccato [though not jerked or full of mannerism] to the most silken legato.

I would imagine that the Philharmonia would be rather fine for Brahms in the time EMI had Karajan as a major contributor to their recording catalogue.

In some ways I imagine it might be more idiomatic than Klemperer's extra-ordinary vision of the music! Strangely Klemperer actually strikes me as the least romantic of Brahmsians. He does not yield much in his momentum in moments of gentle repose, but he does bring out the nobility of the music in an implacable way!

Both Boult and Weingartner are gentler, though both scale the climaxes with unerring sense of their architectural place and significance.

None of these readings are remotely slow, though in the first movement of the Third Symphony, where Klemperer opts for the almost never heard exposition repeat, the effect is of a massive sledge hammer of tragic emotional outpouring, and that is inherent in the music. It only leads to a natural emphasis on the aspect of utter desperation that pervades the symphony. It places it on a level with the Fourth for devastating sweep and calamity

ATB from George

Just thought I'd mention you can download Simon Rattle's Brahms Symphony set from Amazon for £4.39 (!!!)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/pro...98433&pf_rd_i=468294

If you want a modern version that's worth four of anyone's quids I can tell you!

EW

You silly f@*%ers persuaded me, while in my cups the other night, to order HvK's Philharmonia Beethoven CD set, pressed in Japan. Cost a bloody fortune, and I couldn't find an equivalent Brahms set, otherwise I'd be even worse off.

Thanks, chaps!

G

quote:

Originally posted by graham55:
You silly f@*%ers persuaded me, while in my cups the other night, to order HvK's Philharmonia Beethoven CD set, pressed in Japan.

I didn't...!

EW