Brahms' Symphonies

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Originally posted by Earwicker:

quote:

Originally posted by graham55:
You silly f@*%ers persuaded me, while in my cups the other night, to order HvK's Philharmonia Beethoven CD set, pressed in Japan.

I didn't...!

EW

Oh yes you did!

G

Hey guys I've been given a whole collection of vinyl. I found DG box of Brahms conducted by Abbado, Vienna Phil, Berlin Phil, Dresden State and London SO.

This will be interesting to listen to. I like the idea of different orchestras and the same conductor.

I'm not too particular about who is playing it, but I think the 3rd movement of Brahms' 3rd symphony is one of the greatest pieces of music ever composed, anywhere, anytime.

All best,
Fred

Fred,

For me, it is the finale of the 2nd Symphony. Whether it is "great" or not others can debate, but it is certainly my favorite.

I know much of this discussion has focused on sets of the 4 Brahms Symphonies, but I would recommend very highly a one-off of the 2nd Symphony: Joseph Keilberth and the Bavarian Radio Symphony on the Orfeo label, ORF 553011. Terrific performance, terrific recording. (I prefer the less ponderous treatments, i.e. not the late Bernstein or Marin Alsop.)

BTW, this past November I attended Rattle & the Berlin Phil performing Brahms' 2nd at Carnegie Hall. It was a wonderful performance and a sad reminder of how much you don't get from a nice hi fi, even Naim

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:


http://www.musicalcriticism.co...cd-rattle-brahms.jpg

I have both of these but so far I prefer the Rattle version despite it receiving nearly unanimous poor reviews yet the Abbado version receives near unanimous glowing reviews. I'm curious as to why this is.

I'm still exploring both works, but I have spent a considerable amount of time listening to Brahm's 4th from each set. Despite sounding exceedingly beautiful, I find myself quickly losing interest with Abbado's interpretation. The Rattle version meanwhile I find positively electric!

Any thoughts?

I have both of these but so far I prefer the Rattle version despite it receiving nearly unanimous poor reviews yet the Abbado version receives near unanimous glowing reviews. I'm curious as to why this is.

I'm still exploring both works, but I have spent a considerable amount of time listening to Brahm's 4th from each set. Despite sounding exceedingly beautiful, I find myself quickly losing interest with Abbado's interpretation. The Rattle version meanwhile I find positively electric!

Is there a difference in styles of interpretation that I may be responding to rather than artistry?

It is possible to play Brahms too slowly for his music's good.

There are performances about that seem to maintain a greater sense of forward momentum than the cycle from Abbado. I used to have this set, but found more enjoyment in the sets from Bruno Walter [1960?], Felix van Weingartner [1938 to 1941], Boult [1954], Klemperer [1957].

In reverse order of favour with me, but it is a case of horses for courses really. Many people prefer the more expansive views taken by Celibidache, or Abbado [to a lesser extent]. Really the fascinating thing with great performance is to get another! Keep several over time! Perhaps part with the ones that don't really fire your imagination ...

To keep a sense of perpective try to get to some concerts as well!

Never get stuck on only one recording as somehow representing the "definitive" performance. Such a thing really does not exist. Composers themselves often made quite different performances on different occasions ...

Which one of these would be "definitive?"

ATB from George

I will certainly look into more of these works. I find it beneficial to have at least a couple versions of a work that I like. I have been disappointed with the NY Philharmonic lately, so it looks like some trips may be in order to hear live music in other venues!

I would second George's enthusiasm for Walter and von Weingartner.

In another vein, earlier someone had mentioned the new performances by John Gardiner. I have the Second, and was looking forward to liking it more than I did. I found it "interesting" much more so than "captivating."

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Originally posted by Naijeru:
the Rattle version despite it receiving nearly unanimous poor reviews

Has it really? I haven't seen any reviews of it yet. I'm surprised at that, I thought it'd be fairly well received actually, offering a well-played 'central' alternative to recent offerings from Gardiner et al. It lacks the vision and sheer inspiration of the very best but I'd say it was well worth a punt if you want a modern version. You can download the set in very high quality MP3s from Amazon for about £4.30, so see for yourself!!

Yes Earwicker, I've seen quite a few 2s & 3s for Rattle's version. So far it is my favorite Brahm's cycle so maybe there's something to it being a modern interpretation. Of the ones mentioned in this thread samples of Klemperer sound the most compelling so I will try him next.

I only saw good reviews of the Rattle cycle myself. I think it is outstanding.

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Originally posted by Lontano:
I only saw good reviews of the Rattle cycle myself. I think it is outstanding.

I can think of better versions of each symphony but as a whole I'd say it was a very commendable set - certainly one of the most consistent accounts of the four and very well played and recorded.

I have derived a lot of pleasure from listening to Leonard Bernstein's set of the Brahms Symphonies. So, some things come down to personal taste. Let your ears be the guide.

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Originally posted by graham55:
You silly f@*%ers persuaded me, while in my cups the other night, to order HvK's Philharmonia Beethoven CD set, pressed in Japan. Cost a bloody fortune, and I couldn't find an equivalent Brahms set, otherwise I'd be even worse off.

Thanks, chaps!

G

Well, muck fee, the CDs arrived from Japan today, with postage costing almost as much as the discs, only for me to discover that they were an EU import.

Nothing ventured, and filly sucker that I am, I've braved the Japanese amazon website again and ordered a different pressing of the set: if they're not Japanese pressings, I'll have to give up! But at least my son will get (from my mistaken purchase) Karajan's greatest Beethoven symphony recordings.

How sad must it have been for HvK to realise that, as he grew ever more powerful in the classical recording industry in the 60s and 70s, his truly great recordings were mostly in the 50s?

OK, I'm lost. Why didn't you just buy it from Amazon UK for a tenner?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Beetho...id=1270629917&sr=8-1

Or download it for £4.39?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Beetho...id=1270629917&sr=8-1

Because I was very impressed with the job that EMI Japan did with the Beatles mono albums rereleased on CD last year, and wanted to see if they had managed something similar with these great old performances.

But it's a one-off impulse buy!

My experience of EMI's Japanese and European classical CD releases is that they are sonically indistinguishable, but that the printing is incomprehensible to me in Japanese.

I would only search out an EMI Japanese release if it were not available from one of the European branches.

ATB from George

I just saw a live performance of Brahm's 4th which was a great treat if a touch fast. But I guess that was intentional because it was part of the "Rush Hour Concert Series" in which they performed two symphonies in 60 minutes. I've also picked up a Klemperer cycle and I can see why he is so revered.

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I've also picked up a Klemperer cycle and I can see why he is so revered.

Dear Naijeru,

It's amazing in reality! Nothing is exaggerated, but only allowed to speak in its own time [not necessarily slowly] without any seeming intervention at all from the conductor and orchestra, which is really art concealing art.

ATB from George

The Japanese pressed CDs of HvK's early Philharmonia Beethoven Symphonies turned up today, and I've been able to do a few side by side comparisons, one set made/issued in the EU in 2008, the other made/issued in Japan also in 2008.

As I hoped and feared, the Japanese pressings are much clearer and fuller, the famous opening bars of the Fifth being a good example. Even before the orchestra bursts in with those amazing introductory chords, you can hear more of the air, the creaks and the rustles caught on tape in the Kingsway Hall on 9/10 November 1954.

This comment is in the wrong thread, of course. Maybe I'll start a new one elsewhere in a couple of days.

And, George, you're absolutely correct about the liner notes. For all I know, they could be discussing how best to strangle a pig!

G

Dear Graham

I cannot see a great problem discussing the odd Beethoven symphony in a Brahms symphony thread.

The examples where the quality was identical between Japanese issues and UK pressed examples were the old EMI set of the four Brahms symphonies - Furtwangler and BPO and VPO [First symphony in Vienna], and also some of the Walcha Bach series playing the harpsichord, but clearly there are occasions as you have found where there is a difference!

[Enjoy the music, and take no notice of the arrested development on display in the Hifi Corner. There is an extra-ordinarily nasty little "clique" of very loudly self-promoting small men there - these among the softer-spoken adult majority. I hate that section these days. I think we are safe here from the unofficial Forum Moderator! I believe that Doctor is term that should be applied with great discrimination, such as in Joseph Haydn, Doktor [sic] At Oxfort[sic], as he occasionally used to sign himself!]

Just a couple of pence worth, ATB from George

George, the received wisdom is that Karajan trained up the Philharmonia, recorded all those magnificent opera recordings, plus the Beethoven symphonies, then handed over to Klemperer, who produced 'deeper' interpretations of the Beethoven. But is that so? I was amazed, on looking at the recording dates to see just how closely some of the Karajan and Klemperer Beethoven recordings were to each other. What was the view as to their respective merits at the time?

And I know that you've said that you don't like Karajan, but I'd strongly urge you to investigate these Philharmonia Beethoven recordings. All the dash of the HIP movement, but with a proper orchestra and conductor.

And, just in case I missed it in the notes to the Herbie set, would you know how to strangle a pig?

G

Dear Graham,

The Philharmonia was a very fine orchestra from its very beginning in the opinion of the many great musicians that Walter Legge engage to conduct "his" orchestra. Beecham, Boehm, Boult, Kubelic, Richard Strauss Wilhelm Furtwangler, even Toscanini [who positively was desperate to be invited!] and then came Karajan at much the same time as you note as Klemperer arrived. There is no doubt that Karajan was more to Legge's taste than the awkward, and sometimes bolshy Klemperer, but Klemperer was even then a conductor with relationships with the VPO, NYPO, LAPO, BPO, Kolner Guezenich ... the list goes on, even the Concertgebeow!

Legge did really care for some of Klemperer's musical tastes either, but when Karajan left for Berlin Legge had his hand forced, as London audiences were discovering that Klemperer was something of a magician in the concert hall.

As you may guess, I am not a great enthusiast for comparing the great and different in musical performances. I do think that Karajan made some grand performances for EMI with the Philharmonia, and to say otherwise would be daft. I may be mad, but not daft.

I do seem to find something very deep, and often rather a long way below the actual surface of the music making with Klemperer. He was apt to listen to a take and say something along the lines that this was fine, and that even the players were together, so that you [Legge] would accept the take for issue! His concern was not for absolute precision. Indeed by the fifties his conducting technique [after surgery] did not allow for a very clear beat. Some of the Philharmonia, including Dennis Brain were not enthusiastic for Klemperer at all, or at least perhaps for a couple of years. By 1957, he did have the support of the orchestra though, and after a while longer a genuine affection among a large part of it.

Karajan was without question the greater man at getting precision in ensemble, and it would be idle to say that his performances lack depth. They do not, especially in my opinion at this time when he was still ascending to the heights of being conductor for life of the BPO.

It is fascinating that both conductors' work with the Philharmonia is still released, and still released because both conductors produced work that is still worthy to buy on CDs.

So that I might be keener on Klemperer's way than Karajan's [and I used to know partial set of the old contemporary mono EMI Karajan LPs of the Beethoven Symphonies] should be take as nothing other than personal taste.

In my old Klemperer thread, I did try over about three years to investigate the mainstream Klemperer Beethoven issues on Vox, EMI, and Testament. Unlike Karajan, Klemperer is by no means consistently at his finest. Sometimes the performances disserve to have been left in the vault. Not the Brahms symphony set from 1957, but some of the Beethoven stereo efforts were rather odd on occasion! Klemperer was bipolar, and it took its toll on times. And he was sometimes mortified by his own work. Something that would drive him to even deeper despair. On the other hand there are times when the furnace was burning with startling internal fire!

Two different and quite probably equally great musicians!

ATB from George

PS: Never strangled a pig, but have wrung a few chickens necks in my time!

George, I'll have to listen rather more to my new Karajan set, and compare like-for-like with Klemperer in 3,5,6 and 7. But, on an initial hearing, the orchestra sounds so different. So something of the conductor's art must be going on in there somewhere.

G