Dealership greed ?

I am amazed that British retailers can survive at the full retail price. It appears that they are expected to loan out components for weeks at a time (obviously at any given time they would have units out to multiple clients). At the same time they are expected to have almost everything on display. That seems like a very large cost in these days of just in time inventory. Not only that but they must see a lot of abuse - I recall one post where after a two week trial of a powerline, it had only been pluged into a power amp and the guy was going to try it on a couple of other pieces. I have one dealer within 800 miles and they only stock entry level and a few mid level Naim pieces, so count your blessings. If prices were reduced the dealers would have to presure Naim for lower cost goods. Does anyone want Naim to contract manufacture out to Chinese factories that routinley subsitute components? Quality manufacturing and great service are endangered items in our society.

As for people who expect dealers to spend a lot of time on them when they know they will buy elsewhere, they are lower than whale s**t!

Bob

quote:

For most people good hi-fi is a purcashe not made often - is there really any harm in asking the shop for a better deal?

No harm at all. I've bought various Naim bits over the last few years and have never paid full price. But the point is that if you go to a dealer and they loan you equipment and spend time on demos etc, then you should buy from them. Alternatively, you could call various dealers and ask them to tender prices, but don't be surprised if they tell you to bugger off!

Nigel

Nothing at all. except that no one should be asked to do what they do for a living at a price that does not allow them a living.

Fancy finding your salary or wages were subject to a peremptory request for a reduction in remuneration from the boss, which meant that you could no longer pay your rent or mortguage ...

To ask that in terms of a retailer when it concerns a purely luxury item ... well it is not very kind is it?

In my experience, retailers are often very helpful in respect of price, as far as they can be, and sometimes the best policy is "not to ask for a discount at all." As dealers often combine their profession with enthusiasm for the job and the pleasure it brings people, they often treat very fairly those who are not sharp in the purchasing practices ...

ATB from George

quote:

Fancy finding your salary or wages were subject to a peremptory request for a reduction in remuneration from the boss, which meant that you could no longer pay your rent or mortguage ...

My neighbour normally gets a wage rise 1st Jan in line with inflation. This helpd him keep up with paying rising train fares to work, rising food prices, rising local taxes, gas, electricity....you get the picture!!

This year his New Year letter said somehting like "we have decided to hold all wages at last year's level"

To my mind, this looks like an effective wage cut. Unilaterally imposed.

Wage cutting, job losses etc are here. Now.

No doubt manufaturers and retailers will see a drop in sales volumes and in turn need to cut costs just to be able to keep their selling prices stable.

I forcast that home-produced premium-products and also imports will RISE in price over the next two years. I don't expect manufacturers or retailers of such products will cut their unit prices.

Its a tough old world that we inhabit.

Cheers

Don

quote:

Originally posted by Don Atkinson:

This year his New Year letter said somehting like "we have decided to hold all wages at last year's level"

To my mind, this looks like an effective wage cut. Unilaterally imposed.

...

Its a tough old world that we inhabit.

Cheers, Don

Dear Don,

I think the annual wage rise is something more associated with professional vocations than anything else.

Speaker from experience, the arrival of the National Minimum Wage led to an interesting position for me, in that it resulted in forced regrading and two years of wage reductions till I was being paid the legal minimum, as the company used regrading to prevent an overal rise in wage costs.

Before that I will add that my wages were 5.50 GBP per hour in 1993 and fell to less than 5.00 per hour by 2003.

I would think the absense of a wage rise in the current crisis is nothing to get excited about, and let us face the fact that mortguages are rather less expensive to service with the reducing Bank Of England lending rate.

Yes, many people are going to be expected to tighten the belt over time, and I suspect perhaps over the next ten to twenty years as taxation rises to pay back Mr Browns reckless approach to fiscal matters of the public purse, such as the wholely unjustified VAT cut, for one example.

But no one in trade should be expected to provide a completely dispensible luxury item at a running lose. In fact it would be better that they ceased trading rather than compete in a way that makes impossible for others to trade in a fashion that at least rewards their enterprise in business, over the more usual and simple reliance on someone else taking the risks and being employed.

I respect small traders tremendously, and others who are self-employed. Especially when so many employed people take a view based on their own secure employment to base their value judgements on.

However, I am sure that many employed people will soon have reason enough to question the security they have grown used to for a very long time in many cases ...

Indeed, it may be that the only truly safe jobs are in the food industry and undertaking over the coming few years ...

ATB from George

quote:

no one should be asked to do what they do for a living at a price that does not allow them a living.

George

Your atatemnts are confusing me.

My neighbour HAS suffered an effective wage cut. He is now less able to maintain his living standard. Your statement that I re-quote, suggests you consider this unfair. Some of your other statements suggest he should think himself lucky.

I don't think he has a mortgage, so I didn't mention that......he doesn't benefit from any reduction in mortgage. His savings are generating less income. makes him even more poor!

Suggest you re-state your position on wage cuts etc, for clarity

Cheers

Don

Dear Don,

In a nutshell, any employee in the curent situation should feel pleased that his or her wages do not go down in Sterling terms. Of course inflation will erode the spending power.

This situation has been going on for far longer than many realise.

In trade however, I see no reason to expect a service to be provided at a loss, or indeed that does not reflect the risks to personal capital, or indeed the level of service provided.

The difference is there is absolutely no safety net for the self-emplyed or indeed any person gaining the income without being formally employed. The formally employed person is highly priveleged in the UK, and as yet in so many cases barely seems to register the fact.

Even if the job goes he or she still has a guaranteed income in the form of public taxation funded benefits, provided as of right, and enshrined in law. This is correct in my opinion.

This safety net does not apply if you are not employed by someone else for your daily bread.

I hope that makes the difference between the two radically different situations clear, even if this is not widely understood, by those either in employment or those who are entitled to unemployment benefits.

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by ferenc:
I can understand when a dealer tries to maintain the RRP and does not discount valuable goods like Naim equipments.

I do not think selling high-end audio product(s) from a manufacturer with more than 30 years of history would require the same way of doing business like Tesco. High-end audio is luxury and it means the dealer needs to maintain the value of the goods, if it is publicly heavily discounted it will loose value not the price only.

Sorry for my English, I am not sure I could explain properly what I wanted.

your english is good. look what MF have done to their very good KW range by selling them off at half the price or even a third! the range will never get the respect it should. people are already waiting for the new titan amp to be half price even before its properly launched and in the shops. although for £20K i thing i would too...!

but also if a company can sell them for half the price it does make me think why didnt they do this in the first place. they may have sold allot more! and got allot more respect for a very decent amp at a very good price...

r-tee:

huge discounts, below the used market value for new and not used or demo high-end audio products will go against the credibility of the manufacturer and possibly the involved reseller too. It means they want to get rid of them for any price and it is not a good sign, IMHO, it means there is something wrong with them somehow. I would like to buy popular and valuable products which keep their value for a long time.

quote:

Originally posted by munch:
Naim offer a second to nun back up

Not a lot of people know that.

quote:

Originally posted by Don Atkinson:

quote:

no one should be asked to do what they do for a living at a price that does not allow them a living.

George

Your atatemnts are confusing me.

My neighbour HAS suffered an effective wage cut. He is now less able to maintain his living standard. Your statement that I re-quote, suggests you consider this unfair. Some of your other statements suggest he should think himself lucky.

I don't think he has a mortgage, so I didn't mention that......he doesn't benefit from any reduction in mortgage. His savings are generating less income. makes him even more poor!

Suggest you re-state your position on wage cuts etc, for clarity

Cheers

Don

Might be interesting to compare current wages of
hi-fi professionals to what they were making 10
years ago.

quote:

Originally posted by munch:

And bloody want to buck up there service because its what you pay for.
If they dont they will go under.
Some just go that extra mile for you.
And you can still get a good deal with trade ins and px.

Munch

Thanks Munch - we all have bills and also a job to do (a good one I hope)

Anyway, I'm off into the snow now and onto Birmingham Airport now, hopefully I'll be in Aberdeen later!

Kind regards,

Peter

Good luck Peter - we've just had a weird combination of thunder and a major dump of snow in the last 20 minutes so conditions could be 'interesting' across the country today. Safe travels.

Peter

I hope Peter remembered to take his snow shoes!

quote:

Originally posted by Don Atkinson:

quote:

no one should be asked to do what they do for a living at a price that does not allow them a living.

George

Your atatemnts are confusing me.

My neighbour HAS suffered an effective wage cut. He is now less able to maintain his living standard. Your statement that I re-quote, suggests you consider this unfair.

There is surely a potential difference between being "allowed a living" (making a living) and "maintaining his living standard".

Terry,


Next time I jump into a sherbet dab I'm going to ask for a discount because I'm skint due the the "economic climate" but need to get somewhere what would the reply be?



Dean..

That would make me dishonest but thats not my point.



Dean..

quote:

Birmingham Airport now, hopefully I'll be in Aberdeen later!

Hope you made it. BBC2 traffic news suggested Aberdeen was closed for part of today, and I bet the surrounding countryside was snow white!

Cheers

Don

quote:

greed, for lack of a better word, is good

Gordon Gekko 1987

quote:

There is surely a potential difference between being "allowed a living" (making a living) and "maintaining his living standard".

Possibly. However, the context was unclear so I considered it best if George simply made his position a little clearer.

Is a 10% wage cut any different to a 5% drop in a dealer's selling price (please feel free to adjust the 10% and/or 5% figures to suit the industry mark up between wholesale and retail prices etc) assuming the dealer still provides the full service required under the full price.

I still wnoder why hifi manufacturers and hifi dealers are reluctant to sell the product ie the black box at (ex factory + delivery + minimal dealer cost) with either optional or mandatory "add-on" prices (clearly displayed in "menu" style) for (1) shop demo (per hour?); (2) home demo (per week/however long it takes to come on song); (3) home visit to set up to dealer/customer satisfaction; (4) etc (5) etc...... with dealers being able to set their own price for these "add on" services, but required to perform them to an audited standard

Cheers

Don

quote:

Originally posted by munch:
... a bit like the Diamond market.

If they were not held back ,they would be worth nothing.

Munch

Damn and I just invested all my remaining money in Diamonds - oh well that's another £5 I'll lose

I agree with you Munch and your comments regarding Peter's excellent service.

What I'm buying is a service of which the Naim kit is a very important, but not the only part. Naim's strategy to offer support for my kit for as long as I have it (within reasonable expectations) is again part of the service.

You can easily buy cheap kit with no supporting service if you want to.

My job is designing complete solutions for customers in the IT industry and strange as it may seem I expect to get paid for it - I try to give good advice and ensure the solution is installed and works to the customers satisfaction for the duration. If my designs are too expensive or don't deliver then the customers won't come back. Surely not too different from a good dealer.

quote:

Originally posted by Adam Meredith:

I do blame him - I think he should have announced that he would buying solely on the basis of available discount and the dealer could have decided whether to bother with him or not.

You can well say that, if he was even offered the opportunity, he should have matched the price. This is quite similar to saying that British workers (that's probably you) should reduce their wages to match those of China or other countries with lower labour and production costs.

All to the good - eventually we will have a surfeit of wonderfully cheap products, our services will be wonderfully cheap (handled off-shore), your children can work in Theme Parks - Mining Town, Farming World, the City of London (spare us a copper guv) and suddenly the bargain will look like the one-sided selfishness it ultimately is.

I don't get this. There is plenty of healthy competition in other luxury goods markets at the local level that has nothing to so with sending jobs overseas/ Just go out and shop for good road bikes at small local specialists- there are constant discounts to be found at official dealers. No one thinks twice about riding a bike somewhere and buying somewhere else- it happens all the time and is part of the process. Moroever, if a shop knows that you want a bike, they will almost always match a price.

quote:

Originally posted by Roy T:

quote:

greed, for lack of a better word, is good

Gordon Gekko 1987

He ended up in gaol.

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:
My job is designing complete solutions for customers in the IT industry and strange as it may seem I expect to get paid for it - I try to give good advice and ensure the solution is installed and works to the customers satisfaction for the duration. If my designs are too expensive or don't deliver then the customers won't come back. Surely not too different from a good dealer.

Not different at all ROTF.

Some people underestimate the value and the true costs associated with providing the exceptionally high levels of service we get from Naim and their dealers.

This is about choice, and if we all choose to go cheap we end up reducing our choices. There's absolutely nothing wrong asking your dealer for a discount, and it's up to the judgement of the dealer if he can afford to offer one. If this means he's going to lose money then he'd be foolish to do so, and you've got to decide if the level of service you get is worth sacrificing for a few quid off.

If it is, for more than the odd one or two customers, then chances are the dealer in question isn't providing a very good service and will ultimately go out of business.

quote:

there are constant discounts to be found at official dealers.

Perhaps the "official" price of bikes is unjustifiably high?

Perhaps the recommended price of Naim kit is justified by its performance as well as its R&D and component content?

My experience is that if you get a discount on the price, you usually get a discount on the supporting service.

The only real exception in the UK that I am comfortable with is John Lewis, whose service seems to be as good as most and whose price is "never knowingly undersold" - of course they don't sell Naim!!

Cheers

Don