Victorias Empire
Posted by: Mick P on 29 April 2007
Chaps
I have spent the week end in London and on my return home I watched the programme "Victorias Empire" with Victoria Woods.
Basically she is revisting the former Colonies to assess whether the British involvement was good or bad.
A lot of left wingers criticise the Empire but India was an excellent case in point. We never invaded, we got there by trade, we allowed total freedom of religion and we gave them them English language. That language is now proving invalueable to them as they are now a fast growing economy. Their ability to speak English is bringing work into the place and they are providing all the backroom services for the IT industry.
Yes the British have been a force for good and it is about time we started beating the drum.
That programme made me proud to be British and walking around London was an exillerating experience. There is a buzz about the place like nowhere else on earth.
To quote Cecil Rhodes, To be born an Englishman is to win the lottery of life.
We also make Naim.
Regards
Mick
I have spent the week end in London and on my return home I watched the programme "Victorias Empire" with Victoria Woods.
Basically she is revisting the former Colonies to assess whether the British involvement was good or bad.
A lot of left wingers criticise the Empire but India was an excellent case in point. We never invaded, we got there by trade, we allowed total freedom of religion and we gave them them English language. That language is now proving invalueable to them as they are now a fast growing economy. Their ability to speak English is bringing work into the place and they are providing all the backroom services for the IT industry.
Yes the British have been a force for good and it is about time we started beating the drum.
That programme made me proud to be British and walking around London was an exillerating experience. There is a buzz about the place like nowhere else on earth.
To quote Cecil Rhodes, To be born an Englishman is to win the lottery of life.
We also make Naim.
Regards
Mick
Posted on: 03 May 2007 by long-time-dead
Mick
Coming back to your original post.
You mentioned being "British" made you proud yet then quoted Ceil Rhodes "Englishman" quote and then Naim.
Considering your vast knowledge of everything and your love of all things good in your life, do you accept that British does not equal English and that Linn should also have been mentioned as you also own 'Briks ?
This differentiation may explain why the Union is a salient point to debate at Election time........
Coming back to your original post.
You mentioned being "British" made you proud yet then quoted Ceil Rhodes "Englishman" quote and then Naim.
Considering your vast knowledge of everything and your love of all things good in your life, do you accept that British does not equal English and that Linn should also have been mentioned as you also own 'Briks ?
This differentiation may explain why the Union is a salient point to debate at Election time........
Posted on: 03 May 2007 by Mick P
LTD
My own view is that the time has come for Scotland to go its own way.
I think the majority of Scots would vote for independance and on that basis it should be granted.
Regards
Mick
My own view is that the time has come for Scotland to go its own way.
I think the majority of Scots would vote for independance and on that basis it should be granted.
Regards
Mick
Posted on: 03 May 2007 by Mick P
Chaps
It was good to see that the Empire received some support and whilst slightly un PC to support it, my own view is that it did a lot of good in the long term for world development and history.
It educated and civilsed countries and brought a sense of values to millions of people.
It obviously had to go but never the less it was good in its day.
This country is less than 1% of the land mass of the world and yet it must rank as one of the most influencial. Not bad for a litle country.
Our language dominates the commercial world and the internet will strengthen it for years to come.
The worlds finances are run by the English speaking nations.
We dominate the music world. No matter where you go to in the world, you hear English music everywhere.
London is still the financial centre of the world.
Our armed forces are still respected for its training and tradition.
Our Monarchy is respected world wide.
Even in the last 50 years, we have produced two Prime Ministers who will go down in worldwide history as great, I mean of course Winston Churchill and Margaret Thatcher.
We did Iraq, you may not like it but we had the balls to do it. We also did the Falklands.
We may be small but we still have influence and that is why I repeat Cecil Rhodes, to be born an Englishman is to win the lottery of life.
Regards
Mick
It was good to see that the Empire received some support and whilst slightly un PC to support it, my own view is that it did a lot of good in the long term for world development and history.
It educated and civilsed countries and brought a sense of values to millions of people.
It obviously had to go but never the less it was good in its day.
This country is less than 1% of the land mass of the world and yet it must rank as one of the most influencial. Not bad for a litle country.
Our language dominates the commercial world and the internet will strengthen it for years to come.
The worlds finances are run by the English speaking nations.
We dominate the music world. No matter where you go to in the world, you hear English music everywhere.
London is still the financial centre of the world.
Our armed forces are still respected for its training and tradition.
Our Monarchy is respected world wide.
Even in the last 50 years, we have produced two Prime Ministers who will go down in worldwide history as great, I mean of course Winston Churchill and Margaret Thatcher.
We did Iraq, you may not like it but we had the balls to do it. We also did the Falklands.
We may be small but we still have influence and that is why I repeat Cecil Rhodes, to be born an Englishman is to win the lottery of life.
Regards
Mick
Posted on: 03 May 2007 by u5227470736789439
I nod in appreciation at most of that, but I don't think we come close to dominating the Musical World. London used to be the place where five major symphony orchestras worked very adventurously, and with the multitude of chamber orchestras as well the scene was on a level with New York, Berlin, or Vienna perhaps, but that is not so much the case today, sadly. The Orchestral scene is dogged, apart from the BBC, with a very commercial and narrow attitude to repertoire and artists these days...
Equally the comparison of Opera in Milan, New York, Berlin, or Vienna, and London certainly does not suggest London as one of the leading centrs of excelence in the field nowadays - very good, but no where near the best.
No other city in UK comes close to what London has to offer musically...
Kindest egards from Fredrik
PS: I am not sure I care for C Rhodes, though!
Equally the comparison of Opera in Milan, New York, Berlin, or Vienna, and London certainly does not suggest London as one of the leading centrs of excelence in the field nowadays - very good, but no where near the best.
No other city in UK comes close to what London has to offer musically...
Kindest egards from Fredrik
PS: I am not sure I care for C Rhodes, though!
Posted on: 03 May 2007 by Big Brother
Thatcher's a great one huh....
The way I see it, the likes of Thatcher and Reagan were essentially de-constructive leaders. There legacy was taking apart and modifying what was already in place. Namely the government apparatus that took decades of careful work to build.
The great Presidents in my country have CONCRETE accomplishments in the form of legislation that still stands, great victories won, and great and useful edifices built that still stand today. Examples.
Franklin Roosevelt:
WW2
Social security
Refinancing laws
Securities Act and exchange Act
Countless programs to help the poor and disadvantaged.
Truman:
Korean War ( Saved South Korea from going communist)
Medicare
Integrated the military
Eisenhower:
The construction of the US interstate system, the framework for our highway transportation system to this day.
Johnson;
Civil Rights Acts of 64' and 65' that garanteed the rights of all Americans to vote.
Great Society, expansion of Medicare, Head Start(child daycare for families to poor to afford it), food stamps ect.
It is easy to cut taxes and give pretty speeches thus creating heated up economies, a class of super rich, and patriotic 'feelings' all round.
THE PEOPLE I MENTIONED CREATED THINGS THAT ARE THE BASIS OF SUCCESSFUL MODERN SOCIETIES TODAY.
As Sam Rayburn once said, any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.
BB
The way I see it, the likes of Thatcher and Reagan were essentially de-constructive leaders. There legacy was taking apart and modifying what was already in place. Namely the government apparatus that took decades of careful work to build.
The great Presidents in my country have CONCRETE accomplishments in the form of legislation that still stands, great victories won, and great and useful edifices built that still stand today. Examples.
Franklin Roosevelt:
WW2
Social security
Refinancing laws
Securities Act and exchange Act
Countless programs to help the poor and disadvantaged.
Truman:
Korean War ( Saved South Korea from going communist)
Medicare
Integrated the military
Eisenhower:
The construction of the US interstate system, the framework for our highway transportation system to this day.
Johnson;
Civil Rights Acts of 64' and 65' that garanteed the rights of all Americans to vote.
Great Society, expansion of Medicare, Head Start(child daycare for families to poor to afford it), food stamps ect.
It is easy to cut taxes and give pretty speeches thus creating heated up economies, a class of super rich, and patriotic 'feelings' all round.
THE PEOPLE I MENTIONED CREATED THINGS THAT ARE THE BASIS OF SUCCESSFUL MODERN SOCIETIES TODAY.
As Sam Rayburn once said, any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.
BB
Posted on: 03 May 2007 by Deane F
quote:Originally posted by Big Brother:
Thatcher's a great one huh....
Yeah, I'm very interested to know what made Thatcher a "great" Prime Minister?
Posted on: 03 May 2007 by BigH47
Good post BB. It was said of Thatcher and Regan they "knew the cost of everything and the value of nothing".
Posted on: 04 May 2007 by Roy T
With the School of Oriental And African Studies London; the University of Nottingham Ningbo China and Dulwich College also in China I think the enduring legacy of Victoria is alive and well in the modern world of trade, commerce, finance and the arts.
To paraphrase one contributor "Victoria Wood, I have wood and would"
To paraphrase one contributor "Victoria Wood, I have wood and would"
Posted on: 04 May 2007 by Mick P
Chaps
I have no intention of discussing Mrs Thatcher.
She was a great Prime Minister and put the UK firmly back on the map.
Regards
Mick
I have no intention of discussing Mrs Thatcher.
She was a great Prime Minister and put the UK firmly back on the map.
Regards
Mick
Posted on: 04 May 2007 by Deane F
quote:Originally posted by Mick Parry:
Chaps
I have no intention of discussing Mrs Thatcher.
Mick
That's a pity. It is obvious that you are a fervent admirer of Mrs Thatcher. To merely assert that she is a great Prime Minister on the back of your obvious admiration tends to imply that your are either without reason on the subject; or blind to it.
Deane
Posted on: 04 May 2007 by Mick P
Deane
The problem with discussing the achievements of Mrs Thatcher is that some bloody lefties come in and become extremely nasty.
This is the Niam forum, so I hope any reactions will be sensible.
She took over in 1979 and inherited an economic mess. The unions ran the country, we were a total joke and the overall feeling within the country was that of terminal decline.
She stopped government spending, reduced PAYE and shifted the tax to VAT. She applied the monetorist theories of increasing interest rates to halt inflation. She also took on the unions.
This was a formidable task and created a great deal of pain. She had nerves of steel and saw it through despite resistance all around her.
Today our children have inherited an economy that my generation could only dream about. She restored national pride and made us into the strong man of europe.
She stood up for the Falklands and had she remained in power, Saddam would never have survived. She had guts, tenacity and honour.
She was something special.
Regards
Mick
The problem with discussing the achievements of Mrs Thatcher is that some bloody lefties come in and become extremely nasty.
This is the Niam forum, so I hope any reactions will be sensible.
She took over in 1979 and inherited an economic mess. The unions ran the country, we were a total joke and the overall feeling within the country was that of terminal decline.
She stopped government spending, reduced PAYE and shifted the tax to VAT. She applied the monetorist theories of increasing interest rates to halt inflation. She also took on the unions.
This was a formidable task and created a great deal of pain. She had nerves of steel and saw it through despite resistance all around her.
Today our children have inherited an economy that my generation could only dream about. She restored national pride and made us into the strong man of europe.
She stood up for the Falklands and had she remained in power, Saddam would never have survived. She had guts, tenacity and honour.
She was something special.
Regards
Mick
Posted on: 04 May 2007 by Big Brother
quote:She stopped government spending
Do you mean she cut programs that helped the needy?
quote:She applied the monetorist theories of increasing interest rates to halt inflation
Do you mean she supported rates favoring lenders over borrowers ?
quote:She also took on the unions
Do you mean she took on people who work for a living ?
quote:She restored national pride and made us into the strong man of europe.
More flag waving and pretty speeches huh.. ?
Just curious (honest).
BB
Posted on: 04 May 2007 by Steve Toy
Big Brother,
I'll answer your rhetorical questions in turn:
She controlled inflation by increasing the cost of borrowing. Not controlling inflation carries a much bigger cost. Having got inflation under control she should have immediately given the BoE its independence. Her ensuing letting loose on her grip on inflation in the late eighties brought about the recession of the end of the decade. Chancellor Kenneth Clarke paved the way towards BoE independence in the mid nineties.
She took on the union barons who had their own political agendas of a revolutionary communist nature and were simply using the workers as pawns. She democatised the unions so that the workers themselves would have a say regarding strike action via the ballot box.
I'll answer your rhetorical questions in turn:
She controlled inflation by increasing the cost of borrowing. Not controlling inflation carries a much bigger cost. Having got inflation under control she should have immediately given the BoE its independence. Her ensuing letting loose on her grip on inflation in the late eighties brought about the recession of the end of the decade. Chancellor Kenneth Clarke paved the way towards BoE independence in the mid nineties.
She took on the union barons who had their own political agendas of a revolutionary communist nature and were simply using the workers as pawns. She democatised the unions so that the workers themselves would have a say regarding strike action via the ballot box.
Posted on: 05 May 2007 by Mick P
Steven
Thank you for answering on my behalf.
I shudder to think what this country would be like had she not taken over.
The only "workers" who did well in the seventies were those with clout who would strike as a form of blackmail. Car and power workers wages rocketed due to striking whilst those such as nurses were low because they could or would not strike. The winter of discontent really showed the unions for what they were.
It took great force of character to do what she did and yes it was a tough time but we are all enjoying the benefits of her legacy today and to criticise her is pure hypocracy.
Regards
Mick
Thank you for answering on my behalf.
I shudder to think what this country would be like had she not taken over.
The only "workers" who did well in the seventies were those with clout who would strike as a form of blackmail. Car and power workers wages rocketed due to striking whilst those such as nurses were low because they could or would not strike. The winter of discontent really showed the unions for what they were.
It took great force of character to do what she did and yes it was a tough time but we are all enjoying the benefits of her legacy today and to criticise her is pure hypocracy.
Regards
Mick
Posted on: 05 May 2007 by u5227470736789439
Dear Mick,
You do not have to be a particular fan of Mrs T to realise that what she did required a strong character, and essentially she was elected and re-elected, so the country must have been grateful for the chance to square up the mess at the time, even if the collective memeory of this can seem to have faded rather fast in some quarters. But in my view even remembering the good things that so needed doing, not quite everything she did was touched with gold, and her judgement was as falible as the next human in certain issues. She set the seeds of her own demise with the Poll/Council Tax for example.
Mixed feelings about her tenure in some ways, for me, though she was a reflection of a country fed up with what had gone before. Reform always hursts, but even now we [as a whole though not me personally] are reaping the rewards of her reforms!
I agree that she should have made the BoE independant at that time, and it was discussed as I remember it, and there was a "special" on BBC Radio Four's Moneybox [in late Spring 1983], which predicted the benefits we are seeing today in terms of inflation control.
Kindest regards from fredrik
You do not have to be a particular fan of Mrs T to realise that what she did required a strong character, and essentially she was elected and re-elected, so the country must have been grateful for the chance to square up the mess at the time, even if the collective memeory of this can seem to have faded rather fast in some quarters. But in my view even remembering the good things that so needed doing, not quite everything she did was touched with gold, and her judgement was as falible as the next human in certain issues. She set the seeds of her own demise with the Poll/Council Tax for example.
Mixed feelings about her tenure in some ways, for me, though she was a reflection of a country fed up with what had gone before. Reform always hursts, but even now we [as a whole though not me personally] are reaping the rewards of her reforms!
I agree that she should have made the BoE independant at that time, and it was discussed as I remember it, and there was a "special" on BBC Radio Four's Moneybox [in late Spring 1983], which predicted the benefits we are seeing today in terms of inflation control.
Kindest regards from fredrik
Posted on: 08 May 2007 by Laurie Saunders
quote:I watched it too and enjoyed it. Not so much for Victoria Woods lack of insight or poor humour (IMHO) but with the architecture and outstanding beauty of the places she visited.
Me too
So I`m not the only person out there who finds Victoria Wood totally devoid of any talent?
That`s reassuring
For the life of me, I cannot figure out how she came to occupy so much valuable air-space
(does she have a relative who works for the BBC?)
laurie
Posted on: 08 May 2007 by Rasher
quote:
So I`m not the only person out there who finds Victoria Wood totally devoid of any talent?
Oh thank goodness there is someone else who thinks this. The female equivalent of Les Dennis.
Posted on: 08 May 2007 by JWM
I wouldn't go that far! However, there are certainly horses for courses.
In wanting to pick a well-known celeb named Victoria to be able to entitle a populist show about the British Empire with a great big pun, the Beeb had a pretty limited choice...
Personally I can't stand Sharkey or Schama, but I'd rather have had them.
In wanting to pick a well-known celeb named Victoria to be able to entitle a populist show about the British Empire with a great big pun, the Beeb had a pretty limited choice...
Personally I can't stand Sharkey or Schama, but I'd rather have had them.
Posted on: 08 May 2007 by Laurie Saunders
quote:Steven
Thank you for answering on my behalf.
I shudder to think what this country would be like had she not taken over.
The only "workers" who did well in the seventies were those with clout who would strike as a form of blackmail. Car and power workers wages rocketed due to striking whilst those such as nurses were low because they could or would not strike. The winter of discontent really showed the unions for what they were.
It took great force of character to do what she did and yes it was a tough time but we are all enjoying the benefits of her legacy today and to criticise her is pure hypocracy.
Regards
Mick
I have to admit that I totally agree with this
laurie
Posted on: 08 May 2007 by Nigel Cavendish
quote:Originally posted by Rasher:quote:
So I`m not the only person out there who finds Victoria Wood totally devoid of any talent?
Oh thank goodness there is someone else who thinks this. The female equivalent of Les Dennis.
Devoid of talent? Bizarre...
But only 2 of you...
Posted on: 09 May 2007 by AL4N
quote:Originally posted by Musk:
So.........do you consider it acceptable and "good" for Britain to plunder a country for its natural resourses provided the country learns the lingo to enable it to support the agressor ?
indeed...every one's a winner.
Posted on: 09 May 2007 by Malky
"We have many goods for export, Christian ethics and old port
But our greatest boast is that the Anglo-saxon is a sport
When the darts game is finished, and the boys their game of rings
And the draughts and chess relinquished, Oh the captains and the kings
Far away in dear old Cyprus, or in Kenya's dusty land
Where we bear the white man's burden in many a strange land
As we looked across our shoulders in West Belfast the schoolbell rings
And we sigh for dear old England and the captains and the kings "
But our greatest boast is that the Anglo-saxon is a sport
When the darts game is finished, and the boys their game of rings
And the draughts and chess relinquished, Oh the captains and the kings
Far away in dear old Cyprus, or in Kenya's dusty land
Where we bear the white man's burden in many a strange land
As we looked across our shoulders in West Belfast the schoolbell rings
And we sigh for dear old England and the captains and the kings "
Posted on: 13 May 2007 by Mick P
Chaps
Did anyone watch the final episode, here we are, 100 years after the death of Victoria and yet the influence of the Empire continues.
A truly evocative programme.
Regards
Mick
Did anyone watch the final episode, here we are, 100 years after the death of Victoria and yet the influence of the Empire continues.
A truly evocative programme.
Regards
Mick
Posted on: 13 May 2007 by acad tsunami
quote:Originally posted by Mick Parry:
Chaps
[QUOTE] Did anyone watch the final episode, here we are, 100 years after the death of Victoria
106 years surely.
Posted on: 13 May 2007 by Lark
Hi
What makes me smile about peoples recolections of Mrs T, is it's alaways negative. No one has a good word for the old dear. If she was so hated could someone explain how the hell she won 3 general elections (2 land slide). Someone must have voted for her. When people reflect she is regarded as a loony a fringe element. We have to get real she was a very popular PM.
History has a way of re-writting itself, and people always dissasociated themseleves with figures who are later seen as wrong. Bit like if you want to find peoples views you have to do so in complete confidence, ask them in the open if they want lower taxes and its always no public services, in private it's yeah more money. Go on admit it you loved the old bat and walked in the rain to cast a vote for her!! The truth is liberating.
Cheers Karl
What makes me smile about peoples recolections of Mrs T, is it's alaways negative. No one has a good word for the old dear. If she was so hated could someone explain how the hell she won 3 general elections (2 land slide). Someone must have voted for her. When people reflect she is regarded as a loony a fringe element. We have to get real she was a very popular PM.
History has a way of re-writting itself, and people always dissasociated themseleves with figures who are later seen as wrong. Bit like if you want to find peoples views you have to do so in complete confidence, ask them in the open if they want lower taxes and its always no public services, in private it's yeah more money. Go on admit it you loved the old bat and walked in the rain to cast a vote for her!! The truth is liberating.
Cheers Karl