From 135s to NAP500 - worth it ?
Posted by: JosephR on 19 December 2001
I have recently introduced the Prefix/Hicap, and I must say it is one hell of an upgrade, even better than moving up from a 72 to a 52, at least in my system. But it can also mean that the Prefix is just enabling the 52 to be at its best.
I've read the other posts on upgrading to NAP 500, some say it's a waste with SBLs, great with NBLs. So I'm asking for more opinions, now that NAP500 owners would have had their units fully burned in for months. Are the improvements wrought worth its hefty price tag ? I can understand the law of diminishing returns, but if it can really transform the system to great heights ... come to think of it, it is cheaper than a 6-pack of 135s (if brand-new).
I've heard the 500 driving NBLs before they were even burned in, and of course it wasn't spectacular, just normal. I've heard the NAP500 in a home system too, but it won't answer my question as it's an entirely different system from mine; in fact, it was a top Naim system (Active, 3 NAP500s,DBLs,etc) - and it's the best Naim system I've heard, truly to-die-for ...
I have not heard the 500 driving Response 3s, but I have heard it drive both 3.5s and Response 5s. In both cases the 500 was exactly what the speaker wanted vs 135s. The 500 transformed both, making it possible to hear what Stu Tyler intended with the 5--it actually sounded like a viable $14K speaker, where before---it didn't.
Your specific question was on the SBL--the 500 transforms the SBL and eliminates the only real criticism I think fair of the SBL--that it does not do scale or deep bass power/extension. With the 500 the SBL (passive) sounds like a MUCH larger speaker and is preferable, for me at least, to a 135/NBL or DBL system (or to a active SBL with 4x135/SNAXO/Supercap)--the 500 makes that much of a difference. Taking SBLs active with 500s--another system I've heard--finally starts to demonstrate the limits of the SBL (!). At that point I might well take 500/passive NBL/DBL--although I'd have to listen to both before saying for sure.
Put simply, the 500 is so good it renders 6 pack active systems to second place--an astonishing achievement considering the losses passive crossovers introduce. I think the 500 also shows the limitations of both the 52 and the CDS2.
In short, if you can--just get one.
Cheers and happy holidays !
Bob
I think your pro-ac's will benefit greatly from the 500, just be prepared for a 6-8 week break-in period.
Chris Bell
More Fi, Less Hi
Don't think we've met.
500 : no brainer over 135s. 
Good listening; the music's still groovin'.
Regards
Philip
naimniac for life
A dem with the 500 in my system proved this to me, beyond any doubt.
But I still like (supercapped) active 135s cos they cut thru difficult room conditions very well.
Passive 135s. Still fine outside the SBL. Put it with most speakers and one sees just how its tempo and swing communicate sound as music.
Vik.
1 New CD?/52/135/SBL
2 CDS-2/New Pre/135s/SBL
3 CDS-2/52/500/SBL
Experience would suggest that the 500 would be the least sensible place to put money of the three, but I haven't heard these three systems. I would suggest you don't spend any money until the new pre and CD are out and then listen.
Hi Vik
Quite strongly put there. Not sure I agree with it though... 
Have fun with the 500.
Good listening; the music's still groovin'.
Regards
Philip
naimniac for life
you do not know exactly when the new pre amp will be generally available and have been validated by the customers
ditto for the new CD player
The 500 is is available for dem and purchase (all you need is the cash)
All the other options involve an unknown delay to hear an unknown product. And sad to say you might not want to / be available to incorporate the new products into your system and then you will have lost a lot of time when you could have had a 500 in your system and getting the enjoyment from it.
The source first mantra is not always the only way of acting.
Derek
Cheers
Ade
regarding upgrading to the 500, a friend of mine is considering this and has borrowed one from his local friendly emporium.
He invited a few of his hifi buddies over for a listen the other evening and i was one of them.
there were 6 of us ,3 of us ardent followers of NAIM, 3 of us absolute NAIM heretics. This as you can imagine made for a fun evening of comment and discussion.
My friend currently uses 250's with cd and pre with power supplies so the system is definitely high end and has NBL's .
the 3 heretics were not at all in favour of the 500 as in our opinion it offered no real improvement on the 250's,and did not represent a worthwhile investment in his system.
The 2 followers of NAIM were enthusiastic but were not totally convinced. Deciding that perhaps the amp needed the new pre and cd to show its true potential. This represents a massive financial investment on top of proposed cost of power amp.But one of them is himself considering the 500 to go with his recent purchase of DBL's!!!!!!!!
So where does that leave the potential purchaser of the 500?
I believe that he was not convinced by the benefit relative to cost but he was convinced it was an improvemnt over his 250's.
My advice keep the 250's and upgrade car or go on a fabulous holiday.
For my own part i did not like what the 500 sounded like, being hard edgy poor headroom and lacking dynamics. Not my cup of tea at all.But so what.
I myself love valves and horns which is completely different to what NAIM offers.
My speakers are 105dbw and i have 500w valve mono blocks.Max loudness in a large room 125db.
So again it is horses for courses and we should buy what blows our skirts up,and not what others say we should.
Of note hope to be hearing 6 pack 250's and DBL's in not too distant future..
regards david
I call it middle earth.
snicker.
welcome to the forum.
Just to clarify, the NAP500 demo is against a pair of NAP135s rather than NAP250(s).
quote:
The 2 followers of NAIM were enthusiastic but were not totally convinced. Deciding that perhaps the amp needed the new pre and cd to show its true potential.
We both know not to expect to hear the full benefit for at least a couple of days after switch-on.
The NAP500 improved dramatically over the evening. Have another listen in a couple of weeks.
One thing, though - the system doesn't currently have any decent racking - just some home-made MDF cupboards. Something like Naim Fraim racks are really de-rigeur in a Naim system of this calibre. I honestly wouldn't expect the NAP500 to be able to show itself to full effect without them.
cheers, Martin
I think your friend should find himself a broken-in NAP500 to demo. A single 500 will totally destroy active 250s. The sound should be bold, tunefull, and there should be a sense of never ending headroom and power. What you heard was not what a 500 is capable of. Dealers should run their amps in, before loaning out...espically the 500 as it can take 2 months before it's true colors are revealed.
What cd/pre did your friend have? Source first is critical with the 500. Anything less than a 52, and your are strangeling the 500's capacity. I replaced an entire six-pack/snaxo/supercap with a single 500. The difference was immediate and huge. Your friend deserves a propper demo damn'it!
Chris Bell
OK, so I sleep with my 500...is there a problem?
y
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Bell:I think your friend should find himself a broken-in NAP500 to demo...
Dealers should run their amps in, before loaning out...espically the 500 as it can take 2 months before it's true colors are revealed.
Amp is six months old.
quote:
What cd/pre did your friend have?Your friend deserves a propper demo damn'it!
CDSII/CDPS/52/Super (& NBLs).
However, as I said, it is not supported properly at the moment, just on some horrible office MDF furniture (looks OK, but dire sound-wise, I'm sure).
Frankly I would suggest Fraim before a NAP500, and this is what our mate will probably do. The opportunity of a NAP500 demo over Christmas came up - what was he going to do, say "um, no thanks"?
cheers, Martin
It has been improving dramatically since power up.. but it has certainly bought home the need for an earlier purchase of a Fraim than I had intended. My friends have heard similar set ups to mine on Fraims and both agreed that it would improve musicality, tonal balance, timing etc etc no end over my current furniture which was always meant to be a temporary housing for no more than 9 to 12 months.. it will then be converted to bookshelves!
I suspect the greatest difference between the 500 and my 2x135's will be heard when the 500 goes back and the 135's are back in place...always seems easier to hear a retro step than a forward one.
As soon as the Christmas break is over I shall be ordering the Fraim.. large gap on the bottom level of course....just in case I feel I can't live with those 135's any longer! (To be fair my dealer knows that I will be in the market for a 500 later in 2002)!
All said and done.. I can now say that after 4 days..the 500 is sounding very good indeed with the CDS11/CDPS/52/SUPERCAP/NBL setup ...there being seemingly limitless headroom and authority..on anything I have asked it to play.. not in a blow your socks off kind of way but a very musical and natural sound ... just a pity I am not getting the best out of it.. as I would if it were Fraimed!
What an opportunity for some serious reporting.
So we have had initial reports from 2xNaimies (MartinP and Michael) and from 1xNon-Naimie. My interpretation of listening results so far is :-
The 135 system is well run-in and warmed up and sounds ok but not great. The non-naimies aren't suprised, the Naimies are making excuses. It would cost circa £23k to buy new. Hell, unless the stuff was swimming in a bath of water it should sound bloody great!!
The 500 system is well run-in but not yet warmed up in its new location. It sounds ok but not great. The non-naimies aren't supprised, the Naimies are making excuses. It would cost circa £30k to buy new. "Crickey, !!"
No matter what you put the thing on (other than a Fraim) both systems will continue to sound mediocre. A £2k 'trolly-stand' will transform the mediocre sound into an unbelievably terrific experience !! Tell me this is just a Xmas wind-up!!
The 135 system has been around for the best part of 10 years and the 500 system for 2 years. the Fraim for 6 months.
Sounds to me like Naim should be handing out Fraims FREE with each piece of kit they sell. And I wonder on what pretext they have been selling mediocre sounding systems for 10 years, costing in the region of £25k.
To say I am astonished, is the understatement of the year !!
It would be very illuminating if ALL SIX listeners could be persuaded to join the Forum and give their unbiased opinions of these two set-ups, both of the recent initial session and hopefully when the 500 has warmed up. Why wait until the 500 is returned to the dealer before listening again to the 135s??
For the moment, I would heartily recommend that the three Naimies avoid men in white coats!!
Cheers
Don
OK, so I should have read your post more carefully...thanks for the clearing things up. Still, the sound should have been better, but it sounds like things are warming up. Good support will go a long way.
Michael,
Have your NBLs been updated with the new cross over and PARs? Ask your dealer as several changes were made to the speaker which dramatically improved its performance. Also, I think a Fraim will offer you a good upgrade in overall perfomance.
Chris Belll
quote:
Originally posted by Don Atkinson:
The 135 system is well run-in and warmed up and sounds ok but not great. The non-naimies aren't suprised, the Naimies are making excuses. It would cost circa £23k to buy new. Hell, unless the stuff was swimming in a bath of water it should sound bloody great!!
This system sounds fantastic for a passive 135/NBL system which is not properly supported.
quote:
The 500 system is well run-in but not yet warmed up in its new location. It sounds ok but not great. The non-naimies aren't supprised, the Naimies are making excuses. It would cost circa £30k to buy new. "Crickey, !!"
NAP500 was not warmed up. Nuff said.
quote:
No matter what you put the thing on (other than a Fraim) both systems will continue to sound mediocre. A £2k 'trolly-stand' will transform the mediocre sound into an unbelievably terrific experience !! Tell me this is just a Xmas wind-up!!...The Fraim [has been around] for 6 months.
...And I wonder on what pretext they have been selling mediocre sounding systems for 10 years, costing in the region of £25k.
To say I am astonished, is the understatement of the year !!
Just because Naim have only been selling racks for a year or so doesn't mean this has not been an accepted vital element of any serious system for the past decade and more, starting with Sound Org, and on from there.
Hutter, Mana and several others have been the subject of "stand wars" on both old and new conference for as long as I can remember.
I use AF Base rather than Fraim, Fraim is not the only choice, but any good system comes to the point where there's no point spending money on boxes until the stands issue is sorted.
quote:
It would be very illuminating if ALL SIX listeners could be persuaded to join the Forum and give their unbiased opinions of these two set-ups, both of the recent initial session and hopefully when the 500 has warmed up.
I'm sure J.N. (previously Juan Zenuff) will post some impressions soon.
I can't imagine the guy running 3-way active Single Ended Tube amps (211 & 300B) into 114 db/W/M (!!!!!!) horns will have found this to his taste!
cheers, Martin
The NBL's are current spec and the 500 is really showing what they are capable of.
Thanks for your supportive comments regarding the stands...no pun intended!!
More so than the Audio Asylum that i normally contribute to.
Especially as i know a couple of the people in this current debate.
Summing up on my perception of this argument.
Most Naim stuff sounds mediocre unless on Fraims.
Most Naim stuff takes 6 months to warm up and stabilize.Before it sounds better than mediocre.
Most Naim stuff is continually "Improved upon by the manufacturer on a regular basis".
Why is this necessary?
My personal experience of Naim goes back to the late 1970's, and at one time i was an acquaintance of Julian Vereker as i worked for Nytech Audio and we had a very good relationship with him and his company.
I even at one time lusted after a 250.
But not today.
So where to now. Micahel sent me an email telling me that he is very definitely warming to the 500, but will be getting FRAIM's first in order to maximise the potential of his current system and his intended upgrades to the system.
So i presume that he is happy with what the 500 can do.
I have ,believe it or not been invited back for a further listen and will gladly accept.
But i do not believe that the improvement,in my opinion , will justify the cost.
Oh yes i made a mistake it is 135's and not 250's.
To a none NAIMIST they look the same,sorry folks.
I wonder if any body here has heard a large horn with 5w of set valve amp.
If i were to spend the 500 price tag i would buy a CARY 805 set. A few watts of joy.......
I have always believed that if the first watt is poor why oh why would you want 139 more???????
regards david
Some of us started buying Naim long before the Sound Org or Ikea produced stands. To my ears Naim sounded 'better' than the competition at that time, even on Contiboard DIY sideboards that doubled up as LP stores. Clearly we were easily satisfied, but it didn't seem so at the time.
Many modern systems such as Krell and Mark Levinson sound superb sitting on the floor or on modest tables. No doubt they sound even better on a 3" high ridgid platform. Krell 650 Mono Blocks don't seem to suit the top self of a 5 tier QS Ref avec holes!!
Just because you (or I) like Naim doesn't mean we can't or don't appreciate the virtues of other systems such as Krell, ML or 3-way active Single Ended Tube amps (211 & 300B) into 114 db/W/M (!!!!!!) horns and vice-versa. I am sure even the exteme end of the other half of the six-pack should be able to appreciate Naim and make valuable comments.
I would like to figure out why Naim seems to be so sensitive to so many things like stands/no-stand, metal stands, MDF stands, lengthy warm-up periods, cables, etc. Perhaps its getting more like a hyper-sensitive TVR Chameira sports car rather than a perfectly good S320 Mercedes.
Perhaps you and the others could manage another listening session and provide reports when the kit IS warmed up. And perhaps you could lend Michael your Base stands?? (Only a suggestion, nothing to do with me using Base of course!!)
Apologies for the bluntness of the post, bit pushed for time. But it does worry me when stands seem to be SOOOOOOO critical.
Cheers
Don
I started on the Naim trail about 15 years ago with a 32.5/140.. and have gradually climbed to the dizzy heights of my current system.. I choose to use a Naim system because, as a musician, it is able to communicate the emotion and expression of the musicians playing in a way impossible to describe in words.
I admire and respect all our circle of friends choices of system.. and if I could spare the room ..I would happily give house room to a similar set up to Davohorn's as I enjoy the sound of it immensely... I think various systems have strengths merits and weakness..as do our listening rooms.
Life would be very boring if we all went down the same road..and we would be missing out on the opportunity to hear what our respective systems have to offer.
I just had a chuckle to myself.....wonder what his would sound like on a Fraim.... heheh....only kidding!!
I think our little circle of enthusiasts is great stuff.. and I know there is nothing personal in any of the comments made between us whatsoever... long may it continue!
I suppose in our own ways we are each striving to reach that musical...Nirvana.....and at the end of the day let us not forget...it is enjoyment of the music that is the most important thing!
michael has made a very good point regarding choices.
I am pleased he enjoyed my horn system,and as he states if he had room he would have a similar system.
I am fortunate or daft enough to have four systems up and running in my humble abode,so i can listen to any of the 4 systems as my fancy takes me. Sometimes i can spend too long deciding which one to listen to.
The systems are detailed on the audio asylum inmates systems so if interested you can look them up.
But if you have to decide on a single system to meet all your musical choices it is difficult to find a single system to do this. This is the dilemma that faces most of us , and achieving ones aims within our finances is the hard or fun part of this hobby. Listening to friends comments criticisms etc also adds to the fun. lengthy debate is also part of the sense of fraternity our hobby can provide.
So hopefully michael will be visiting me ,and i will visit him over the festive season.
regards david
quote:
Posted by DAVOhorn:-I myself love valves and horns which is completely different to what NAIM offers.
My speakers are 105dbw and i have 500w valve mono blocks.Max loudness in a large room 125db.
quote:
Date: 23-Jun-98 02:25
Author: julian vereker
Subject: scale... Quads manage about 100dBspl peak, a full orchestra does (on some music) 125dBspl peak - the DBLs will go to 130dBspl peak on the end of 6hp (peak).
julian
Nyah, nyah!
quote:
Most Naim stuff takes 6 months to warm up and stabilize.Before it sounds better than mediocre.
Warm-up for a medium system is a few days. A couple of weeks for absolute best in a top-end system.
Run-in, though - mainly over after a month, but many have reported that "something wonderful has happened" after about three months.
quote:
Most Naim stuff is continually "Improved upon by the manufacturer on a regular basis".
Why is this necessary?
Who could complain if the manufacturer learns how to make things even better?
quote:
(by me) Nuff said
Well, just to clarify:-
quote:
Date: 27-Sep-99 17:58
Author: julian vereker
Subject: NAP500Frank
The NAP500 seems to be much more like a pre-amp, it takes ages to warm up - not at all like 250s or 135s.
julian
cheers, Martin