From 135s to NAP500 - worth it ?

I'm waiting for the comments of someone else who was there, and does not have a valve/horn or Naim system. Come on Simon, don't be shy!

I run active 250's and have great respect for the 500. Who can say if it's worth the asking price? There is a problem of perceived value and improvement as it does its thing in a very understated manner. Others I know, who trialed a 500, made very uncomlimentary comments about their 135's, when forced back to them.

The 500 presents music in a very believable, natural manner (if you like the sound of Naim speakers, that is).

It's all nonsense anyway. An artificial representation of the real thing. The sound produced at a lot of live gigs, would not be tolerated on reasonably priced Hi-Fi.

May the madness continue.

DAVOhorn wrote:

>I wonder if any body here has heard a large horn >with 5w of set valve amp.

As it happens, a couple of days back I went to a local dealer who works from home and listened to:

Walker Proscenium T/T with its own tangential arm, motor supply unit and phono stage. This set up is a monster of Hollywood proportions.

Clearaudio 'Reference' cartridge

Viva valve preamp.

Viva valve 8W SET monoblock power amps

AvantGarde quasi-horn speaker thingies with their own subs.

I can't remem ber what the cabling was but it was your typical american anaconda sized piping. Total system cost was around $50,000.

We played some Lou Reed and John Cale, Rickie Lee Jones and bits and pieces of some MOR jazz standards. Now I can certainly hear why p e ople warm to this sound (or should I say presentation) because it's certainly relaxing, pleasant and conveys the recording venue in a pleasing and life-like manner close miked instruments and vocals sound detailed and 'ripe' (?)

So, all the sound recreational aspects were pretty good. Unfortunately, it couldn't carry a tune in a bucket. Dynamics were not reproduced in a believable fashion as there seemed to be no 'beginning' to notes. Also to my despair, there wasn't any frenetic hard rock in the LP c ollection. I wonder why ;-)

To be fair, the owner hadn't finished dialing in the Clearaudio and none of the equipment was on proper stands. Most dealers over here don't accept stands as having any importance (except for WAF), so this isn't unusual. I'm g oing to revisit this system in a couple of months to see how it's developing.

For the moment, my Armageddon/LP12/ARO/XV-1 with mid range Naim amplification and Credos is way out in front.

Best Regards,
Mark Dunnn

It seems to me that "worth" is a term that is only meaningful within specific context: that of the person contemplating a purchase. That person makes a value judgment of the benefit derived vs the monetary cost. That judgment, for that person at that point in time in those particular circumstances, is correct.

DAVOHorn--I recently heard two sets of Avantgardes, the first being the Trios powered by a Hovland preamp and Vivo (sp?) tube power amps, driven by the most expensive dCS gear. It sounded good--I could hear what people like about it, being relaxed, detailed, soundstaging and imaging well, etc. However, I would not own it. For me, however, it did convey tune, emotion, drive or timing nearly as well as my much more modest Naim system. I think your point on choice is well taken--some people choose red, others blue. Perhaps the distinction that should be made is what folks are looking for--for someone like me, Naim is the best I have yet found. For a friend of mine who has tubes, Conrad-Johnson is the best he has found (and I must admit his system does things mine doesn't, and vice-versa).

What I find most sad about hifi forums and life in general is the general lack of acceptance of/respect for other peoples' ideas and opinions. It is great to read people with differing opinions on this forum, provided they don't get out of hand as they occasionally do.

Cheers and happy holidays to all!

Bob

1 hp = approx 750 w
so 6 hp = approx 4500w

I believe the dbl's use a single ATC 15" bass unit.
I have checked the specs and using the specs for the SB 100 375 we have
nominal power handling 100w
max input power 200w
max program power 400w

now guessing that the dbl is 90 dbw sensitivity
then we have

1 w = 90 db
10 w = 100 db
100w = 110 db
1000w = 120 db
10000w = 130 db

and this using a bass drive unit with a max cont power handling of 200w.

now using a horn of 105dbw sensitivity and max cont power handling of 200w we have:

1 w = 105 db
10 w = 115 db
100w = 125 db
1000w = 135 db

Also one should also add that most mid range units have a max power handling off approx 50w and most tweeters have a max power handling of approx 15-25 w, before the voice coils overheat and burn out.

I popped into michaels for late delivery of his xmas card and had a quick listen to Diana Krall on the system and i can confirm that the amp is now much happier and certainly more musical and involving to listen to. But the 135's were no slouch anyway, so the dilemma of will he wont he buy is still there. Hope to be having a further proper listen before the amp goes home .

regards david

quote:

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Originally posted by DAVOhorn:
regarding Martins statement that the dbl's can handle 6hp and produce 130 db.

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It merely reported Julian Vereker's statement verbatim. I suspect he was referring to 3xNAP500, which implies they are capable of pushing a 1,500VA transient.

DBL is 92 dbw, but I appreciate that this doesn't materially affect the argument.

As for Michael's system, I stand by the assertion that it is a mullet, incapable of properly demonstrating the NAP500 until he gets Fraim (or some other racks).

cheers, Martin

You will be pleased to know that as soon as the factory reopens on the 2nd of January I shall be ordering the Fraim!

Mullet is delicieux in a traditional French soup by the way! Served with crispy croutons atop!

In fact, I'm pretty sure you will.

The last time I heard DBLs (with 2xNAP250) there was something not-quite-right about the sound. I wonder if racks (rather than a NAP500 upgrade) would have helped a lot.

cheers, Martin

I know it makes sense!

quote:

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Originally posted by Michael:
I know it makes sense!

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Indeed, I'm told you were most impressed with the improvements going from Sound Org racks to your current DIY afair.

cheers, Martin

went back to michael's for a follow up session before the amp goes back.

Yep it did sound very good.
The sound had really settled down and was easier to listen to,being smoother and more musical. The bass had good depth and extension the mid was more open and the top was much smoother with less edge. A big improvement over the first time i had heard it.
My only grumble is that the soundstage was small lacking width depth and height . The imaging was pretty good, but not as good as i get at home.

Would i buy it?

no ........

did i enjoy listening to the system ?

yes
even though it is not really my idea of a cup of tea. I much prefer my system. But if this is what a good NAIM system sounds like then i now understand where naim enthusiasts are coming from.

regards david

quote:

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My system consists of a pair of 135s/52/Supercap/Prefix/Hicap/Proac Response 3
I have recently introduced the Prefix/Hicap, and I must say it is one hell of an upgrade, even better than moving up from a 72 to a 52, at least in my system. But it can also mean that the Prefix is just enabling the 52 to be at its best.

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I don't understand what you mean? What is a prefix?
Why does it better your system?
I have a nac102/Supercap/nap180, can it help?

Thanks

Charles

quote:

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Originally posted by DAVOhorn:
My only grumble is that the soundstage was small lacking width depth and height . The imaging was pretty good, but not as good as i get at home.

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David,

although Mike will be going back to 135s for now, it will be fascinating to see whether Mike's Fraim does this for you.

These are not terms into which I normally dissect a performance, but I think that the depth which Fraim brings out might translate into your imaging priorities.

Have you recently heard Mike's system (pre-Fraim) with 135s, so you can compare it with?

cheers, Martin

do you have fraims??????

if so what did they replace?

if not why all the comments on FRAIM's .

Also are you going to invest in some FRAIM's if you dont have them now?

regards david

I don't have Fraims, but I did get my current racks (AF Starbase & Base) from someone who upgraded to Fraim. He seems to reckon they're something of a second best. I've not done extensive demos so I can't comment on the other stuff.

However, I am extremely pleased at the improvement this has wrought. Rather than re-hashing it again to the endless tedium of the regulars, try the Advanced Search facility (a horrible misnomer, but it's better than nothing). Search on base as keyword & me as author.

Base did give me a lot more 'depth' which you might interpret as 'stage depth'? Who can say?

cheers, Martin

[This message was edited by JosephR on SUNDAY 13 January 2002 at 06:31.]

quote:

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The question is, which system would be better, 500 or source first?

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It was substituting my 2x135's in a cds2/52/NBL setup. It took a good three weeks for the 500 to start to show its true colours and just seemed to be getting better everyday until it had to go back at the beginning of the fourth week.

The acid test, of course, was putting the 135's back into the system. They have been running for a week now and, of course, are sounding good... remembering that these were the flagship amps of Naim for many many years. However, they just do not have the musicality of the 500 which seemed to play everything presented to it with authority and in such an involving manner.. also the lightning speed of the 500's on say an indian bell or rimshot of a snare drum is awe inspiring. My other comment as a musician would be that they were able to present all the nuances and harmonics which go to make a clarinet sound like a clarinet and a cello a cello.. in no other way I have heard before.

Needless to say I will be ordering a 500 before the April price increases to replace my 135s.

Michael

So after much cogitation and deliberation you have decided to bite the bullet and stump up the cash.

It was interesting to see your comments on the post as when we last spoke regarding this decision you stated that removing the 500 and going back to the 135's would be the deciding factor in the decision. And it has come to this, that removing it and going back was a retrograde step and so you are going into penury to rectify this situation.

As an aside what did you think of simon's system?

Also would Andrew like to pay a visit to my abode for a listen to my system. I believe he enjoyed simon's system.

Hope for a further invite to yours for a listen.

regards david

Big changes afoot early part of next week!

Dedicated spur going in on Monday from a separate switchbox between the meter and the main house consumer unit.. 32amp with 10mm2 cable to an unswitched socket.

Also the system wil be sitting on Fraim after that..so we will have to allow time for it to come on song again... but then you and the gang will be most welcome to have a listen.