DAC and FLAC - clarification?

Posted by: rupert bear on 04 March 2010

According to the Connections newsletter, 'all Naim products with a USB input can play FLAC files'. The brochure on the DAC, however, states that the file formats supported are 'USB = WAV'.

Perhaps someone could clarify this.

Posted on: 04 March 2010 by js

It was true until the DAC showed up. It does not play flac natively.

Posted on: 04 March 2010 by Aleg

quote:
Originally posted by rupert bear:
According to the Connections newsletter, 'all Naim products with a USB input can play FLAC files'. The brochure on the DAC, however, states that the file formats supported are 'USB = WAV'.

Perhaps someone could clarify this.

It is an aberration of the DAC to be able to play WAV, not to not be able to play FLAC

It is supposed to be a DAC not a mediaplayer.
-
aleg

Posted on: 04 March 2010 by rupert bear

quote:
Originally posted by Aleg:
quote:
Originally posted by rupert bear:
According to the Connections newsletter, 'all Naim products with a USB input can play FLAC files'. The brochure on the DAC, however, states that the file formats supported are 'USB = WAV'.

Perhaps someone could clarify this.

It is an aberration of the DAC to be able to play WAV, not to not be able to play FLAC

It is supposed to be a DAC not a mediaplayer.
-
aleg

Aleg - not sure I quite understand what you're saying! Surely one would want a DAC to be compatible with as many file types as possible?
Cheers

Posted on: 04 March 2010 by garyi

Unfortunately this has become and expected thing. It however makes no sense, a dac is a dac, a Digital to Analogue convertor. It takes a digital audio stream and converts it to analogue so as humans we can listen to it.

A flac and a WAV are computer files. they are not audio files. they need a computer to convert them files into a digitial bit stream in ready for the dac to process.

Posted on: 04 March 2010 by Aleg

quote:
Originally posted by rupert bear:
quote:
Originally posted by Aleg:
quote:
Originally posted by rupert bear:
According to the Connections newsletter, 'all Naim products with a USB input can play FLAC files'. The brochure on the DAC, however, states that the file formats supported are 'USB = WAV'.

Perhaps someone could clarify this.

It is an aberration of the DAC to be able to play WAV, not to not be able to play FLAC

It is supposed to be a DAC not a mediaplayer.
-
aleg

Aleg - not sure I quite understand what you're saying! Surely one would want a DAC to be compatible with as many file types as possible?
Cheers

Garyi puts it like I meant.

The DAC is a digital-to-analogue converter which just converts an S/PDIF digital audio signal into an analogue audio signal.

We normaly need a mediaplayer (software or hardware) to convert audiofiles, which have been coded as WAV, FLAC, AIFF or whatever is out there, into an S/PDIF digital audio signal.

In my opinion it is a special, non-DAC feature, that the Naim DAC can play WAV-files. This is not what one would expect from a DAC pur-sang but from a mediaplayer. That's why I called this feature of the Naim DAC an 'aberration', because DAC normally don't play audiofiles.

-
aleg

Posted on: 04 March 2010 by likesmusic

S/PDIF isn't a pure bitstream either - just another format. There's all sorts of headers and control bits and preambles, from which the data has to be separated. So it's just another file format really. Here's a part of the description of the SPDIF signal format:

A PCM signal is transmitted in sequential blocks. Each block consists of 192 frames. Each frame contains two sub-frames, one for each channel. Each subframe is preceded by a
preamble. There are three types of preambles: B, M and W. Preambles can be spotted easily in an SPDIF bitstream because these sequences never occur in the channel parts of a valid SPDIF bitstream.
A sub-frame contains a single audio sample word which may be 24 bits wide, a validity bit which indicates whether the sample is valid, a bit containing user data, a bit indicating the channel status and a parity bit for this sub-frame. The data bits 31 to 4 in each sub-frame are encoded using a BMC scheme. The sync preamble contains a violation of the BMC scheme and can be detected.

Definitely not just music bits!

Posted on: 04 March 2010 by AMA

Aleg, we can simplify the classification.

DAC is a gear which inputs a time-coded data, for example S/PDIF or I2S.

Streamer is a gear which can connect to a static data (for example WAV or FLAC on external HDD or USB) and generate a time-coded data and then send it to DAC.

From this point of view Naim DAC is a DAC and a streamer with limited functionality -- it can stream WAV data from USB and all audio data from iPod

Posted on: 04 March 2010 by Aleg

quote:
Originally posted by AMA:
Aleg, we can simplify the classification.

DAC is a gear which inputs a time-coded data, for example S/PDIF or I2S.

Streamer is a gear which can connect to a static data (for example WAV or FLAC on external HDD or USB) and generate a time-coded data and then send it to DAC.

From this point of view Naim DAC is a DAC and a streamer with limited functionality -- it can stream WAV data from USB and all audio data from iPod

AMA

Indeed a clearer and simpler classification.

Fact remains that I think the capability of the Naim DAC to play WAV files is an extraordinary feature I would not normaly not suspect to be available on a DAC. I would its incapability to play other formats not describe as a lack of a feature since one would normaly not get audio playback at all on a DAC, simply because it is not the function of a DAC to play back audio files.

Just lets say the feature to playback WAV and iPod is a bonus

-
aleg

Posted on: 04 March 2010 by js

You give them a finger....

Posted on: 05 March 2010 by pcstockton

quote:
Originally posted by Aleg:
quote:
Originally posted by AMA:
Aleg, we can simplify the classification.

DAC is a gear which inputs a time-coded data, for example S/PDIF or I2S.

Streamer is a gear which can connect to a static data (for example WAV or FLAC on external HDD or USB) and generate a time-coded data and then send it to DAC.

From this point of view Naim DAC is a DAC and a streamer with limited functionality -- it can stream WAV data from USB and all audio data from iPod

AMA

Indeed a clearer and simpler classification.

Fact remains that I think the capability of the Naim DAC to play WAV files is an extraordinary feature I would not normaly not suspect to be available on a DAC. I would its incapability to play other formats not describe as a lack of a feature since one would normaly not get audio playback at all on a DAC, simply because it is not the function of a DAC to play back audio files.

Just lets say the feature to playback WAV and iPod is a bonus

-
aleg

what the f else would it play?

Posted on: 05 March 2010 by likesmusic

quote:
Originally posted by AMA:

Streamer is a gear which can connect to a static data (for example WAV or FLAC on external HDD or USB) and generate a time-coded data and then send it to DAC.

I don't agree. A streamer to me is a piece of equipment which can take music files, such as WAV, and convert them to analogue. This is what all current streamers from Logitech, Linn et al do. To define a streamer as a thing that only has a digital output and so needs an external DAC is to introduce the very thing you want to avoid - namely a (jittery) S/PDIF data stream.

Posted on: 05 March 2010 by rupert bear

Thanks for all the replies - aleg especially, now I understand my frustration with it! So the WAV play feature is basically a carrot (using a stick) to get us CD-diehards on board to then buy a streamer, HDX, etc etc. I'm happy with the thing as a simple leap of progress in CD, though admittedly I still have reservations about Naim's volte-face re their CD player legacy.

However, the initial reason for my query was the confusion within the Connections newsletter re FLAC. Obviously an oversight on someone's part.

Did I tell you that the tuner remote codes do strange things with the DAC's inputs? Whoops!

Posted on: 05 March 2010 by Aleg

quote:
Originally posted by pcstockton:
quote:
Originally posted by Aleg:
quote:
Originally posted by AMA:
Aleg, we can simplify the classification.

DAC is a gear which inputs a time-coded data, for example S/PDIF or I2S.

Streamer is a gear which can connect to a static data (for example WAV or FLAC on external HDD or USB) and generate a time-coded data and then send it to DAC.

From this point of view Naim DAC is a DAC and a streamer with limited functionality -- it can stream WAV data from USB and all audio data from iPod

AMA

Indeed a clearer and simpler classification.

Fact remains that I think the capability of the Naim DAC to play WAV files is an extraordinary feature I would not normaly not suspect to be available on a DAC. I would its incapability to play other formats not describe as a lack of a feature since one would normaly not get audio playback at all on a DAC, simply because it is not the function of a DAC to play back audio files.

Just lets say the feature to playback WAV and iPod is a bonus

-
aleg

what the f else would it play?

Nothing.

DACs are not for playing. DACs are for converting digital to analogue.

Computer software, mediaplayers and streamers are for playing.

No f-words please, not necessary.

-
aleg

Posted on: 05 March 2010 by ferenc

quote:

Fact remains that I think the capability of the Naim DAC to play WAV files is an extraordinary feature I would not normaly not suspect to be available on a DAC. I would its incapability to play other formats not describe as a lack of a feature since one would normaly not get audio playback at all on a DAC, simply because it is not the function of a DAC to play back audio files.

Just lets say the feature to playback WAV and iPod is a bonus

-
aleg

To be honest it is one of the most important feature of the DAC, I think.

I was very much surprised to try the USB wav playing. It sounds very good. I got a DAC and an XPS2 to try more than a week ago. I have all sorts of old bulky 1, 2 GB USB pendrives, tried them and they sound the same, generally very good. But (call me crazy

) I have a not so old 16 GB korean pendrive, called Memorette. It is a very small, qute with golden trace on the connecting side and it sounds much better than the other pendrives and any of my computer interfaces, like Konnekt8, HiFace and Weiss DAC2, Lynx AES card, I tried. It is like ... I do not know better comparison, like a very good half inch master tape on 38cm/s. Very smooth, but full of energy and life size artists and instruments and it does have not a 3D imagery or space, but real atmosphere, vibrating air between the musicians. I do think I have never heard any better digital transport. So if you want a computer audio, without the computer itself, get a DAC and a copy the CD from your computer storage to the pendrive, only the one, you want to listen. A cd takes about a minute to copy, really not a big deal, to have the computer audio without the computer itself

Memorette Dual Gold

There is only a very minimal navigation possibility, but I do not mind, it sounds so good.

Posted on: 05 March 2010 by pcstockton

quote:
Originally posted by Aleg:

No f-words please, not necessary.

-
aleg

Thanks Dad! I didnt use the "f word", intentionally.

Posted on: 05 March 2010 by Aleg

quote:
Originally posted by pcstockton:
quote:
Originally posted by Aleg:

No f-words please, not necessary.

-
aleg

Thanks Dad! I didnt use the "f word", intentionally.

OK, my Son

Posted on: 07 March 2010 by AMA

quote:
like a very good half inch master tape on 38cm/s.

Have you got access to this?!

Posted on: 07 March 2010 by ferenc

quote:
Originally posted by AMA:
quote:
like a very good half inch master tape on 38cm/s.

Have you got access to this?!

Yes, we have tapes and ATR too.

Posted on: 08 March 2010 by ferenc

quote:
Originally posted by ferenc:
quote:

Fact remains that I think the capability of the Naim DAC to play WAV files is an extraordinary feature I would not normaly not suspect to be available on a DAC. I would its incapability to play other formats not describe as a lack of a feature since one would normaly not get audio playback at all on a DAC, simply because it is not the function of a DAC to play back audio files.

Just lets say the feature to playback WAV and iPod is a bonus

-
aleg

To be honest it is one of the most important feature of the DAC, I think.

I was very much surprised to try the USB wav playing. It sounds very good. I got a DAC and an XPS2 to try more than a week ago. I have all sorts of old bulky 1, 2 GB USB pendrives, tried them and they sound the same, generally very good. But (call me crazy ) I have a not so old 16 GB korean pendrive, called Memorette. It is a very small, qute with golden trace on the connecting side and it sounds much better than the other pendrives and any of my computer interfaces, like Konnekt8, HiFace and Weiss DAC2, Lynx AES card, I tried. It is like ... I do not know better comparison, like a very good half inch master tape on 38cm/s. Very smooth, but full of energy and life size artists and instruments and it does have not a 3D imagery or space, but real atmosphere, vibrating air between the musicians. I do think I have never heard any better digital transport. So if you want a computer audio, without the computer itself, get a DAC and a copy the CD from your computer storage to the pendrive, only the one, you want to listen. A cd takes about a minute to copy, really not a big deal, to have the computer audio without the computer itself

Memorette Dual Gold

There is only a very minimal navigation possibility, but I do not mind, it sounds so good.

I have to revise my "statement" a little bit.

The USB is good, can be very good, but not so much better as I tried to suggest

As the Naim DAC/XPS2, the new Weiss DAC2 (used as FW-SPDIF converter) and a new DC-1 cable with HiFace runs in the SPDIF is getting better and sounds now really good, very close or sometimes better than the USB. So now I do not feel any dramatic difference, everything sounds really enjoyable. However I feel a pendrive as a digital transport is a good alternative, a very good compromise on the level of the good cd transports, if you can live with the simple navigation and if you need sometimes, not every day, play audio files or you want to taste high-res beside your cd transport.