Falling on barren ground - HDX

Fortunately, Naim have more commercial acumen than to rely on existing customers.

You have inadvertently defeated your own proposition with the comment: -

quote:

Come on Naim bite the bullet, grab the market space while you can by offering the flexibility and future proofing we all need.

That is precisely what they are doing with the HDX. Hard disc, or ultimately flash type music storage is where music is going. It already can deliver better performance than CD as it is not limited to 44khz/16bit. There will still be kit for those who are not interested.

Even ripped CDs have the potential to sound better than the CD (error correction having been sorted before the play button is hit).


Steve

Cheers Steve !

So the HDX is aimed at new Naim customers. What is the Naim offering for me ? I would love to have Naim quality file based replay, however the playing and ripping facilities of the HDX are not what I require as I have already ripped my files using wav & EAC. I have the files would love a Naim based way of playing them.

LIke many others I use a Beresford at present and am unlikely to upgrade to another non-Naim DAC. The potential sales of a Naim DAC must be high, at least 20 from just this forum alone I would guess.

Maybe the Beresford or another non-Naim DAC is the answer, just would love the option of having a Naim DAC.

I am sure thiswill be resolved in time, well I hope so !

Thanks for yor comments

Let the music play and play...

quote:

The potential sales of a Naim DAC must be high, at least 20 from just this forum alone I would guess.

That's not very many to justify the costs. How much would you pay for the Naim DAC? £2k? At the moment I've not been impressed with any computer based audio. I've not heard the HDX.

If you have a Naim CDP then you could burn your music to CD and play them in that then you'll benefit from the integral Naim DAC and no need to play with a remote or menu system just to play some music

If there is a market for a Naim DAC then I'm sure they;ll make one, but all the best CDPs have the DAC in the same box as the transport - so perhaps this is the same for HD (Horrible Disk) players. I'm sure the HDX is well thought out and Naim have done all they can to protect the data on the disk, keep it contiguous, stop the disk noise and keep the nasty disk control mechanism away from the sensitive audio circuits, but they are working with a very dated technology - not their fault of course, they have to work with what's available. So if you want a hard-disk music source then the HDX is probably the way to go.

I agree with Steve - flash type music storage - now that sounds interesting: no moving parts to go wrong and no noisy discs. However, will it sound as good as a Naim CDP or LP12 - only time will tell.

ATB Rotf

Emcee, I believe the HDx or NS01 would play pack your PC/NAS stored and ripped wav files as it does downloaded files, so you would already have 2 options. You'd certainly, and it would be interesting to see how these playback your EAC ripped files vs. the HDX ripped files. I agree that the external DAC would be intriguing, but I doubt it will be much cheaper than the NS01 or Linn Akurate DS.

quote:

Linn Akurate DS

Not impressed with what I heard - shame really, nice idea.

I'm intrigued by Steve's suggestion - one box player with flash type music storage - could be a winner.

ATB Rotf

There shouldn't be TOO much cost developing the N-DAC.

They have already made a wonderful DAC in the HDX that is designed to excel at HD based replay.

It can't be too much of a leap to throw that DAC in a NAPSC or HC box, and put a couple RCA and DIN outputs, and USB/Firewire input on the rear. Make it upgradable with a FC or HC and away we go. PSU sales increase as well.

I realize that there are far more details than that to make a new product. But in this case most of the work has already been done.


And ROTF, what would I pay for a Naim DAC? Ideally, it would be in the CD5i range. Although i would expect it to be no more than the Superline??? (1/3 the price of the HDX)

Given the need and desire for MANY of us to use our current PCs, MACs, and fully loaded hard drives, as well as our favorite players and interfaces. I personally dont think the HDX is going to hit it big. IT is simply too expensive for what it does.


Imagine, as the specs stand now, what an HDX will be worth in 5 years.

Given the astronomical advances in the computing world and the relatively inexpensive ability to upgrade to adapt to these new options, a PC/MAC will always win over a product like the HDX.

Gary,

With your suggestion of using one's own HDs, and previously ripped music, via the USB port on the HDX, you are asking us to buy a $10,000 DAC!!!

At that point the DAC is all you would be using in the HDX. That seems to me to be a complete waste of space, and money.

Not even considering that it wont rip to FLAC..... a huge issue in my book.

Also, I am in no way convinced it rips in the "best possible" fashion.

Without a log file or cue sheet, I immediately dismiss the method on principle.

quote:

Imagine, as the specs stand now, what an HDX will be worth in 5 years.

Given the astronomical advances in the computing world and the relatively inexpensive ability to upgrade to adapt to these new options, a PC/MAC will always win over a product like the HDX.

I'd wait and suspend judgment until you hear what it can do–after all, why spend "silly" money on anything of higher quality in the first place?

Having spent some time in the recording and authoring/mastering space, I can assure you that NO sensible professional believes that an off-the-shelf PC or Mac would be sufficient on its own as a digital transport, except for situations where sound quality is NOT the primary factor. There is a fair bit of engineering that goes into getting the best possible performance, across a product (range) as a whole, without compromise as regards sound quality.

I still don't see the capacity for significant improvement on the AES/EBU or SPDIF front, inasmuch as the basic transport schema has some real fundamental issues which must be addressed at both ends of the chain, not just the receiving end (DAC).

Don't believe my words, though–do the comparative demonstrations, they're quite eye-opening.

PC,I wasn't suggesting you purchase anything. All I said is that it would be interesting to hear the difference in HDX ripped files played back through the HDX and your flac or wav EAC ripped files played back to see if there is a music quality difference. It should be very educational I would think, especially with all of the forum comments as to how good ripped music is played back through the PC and how it compares to a high quality CDP. I think I recall someone saying it compared to their CDS3. If there is an appreciable difference then that should settle the debate and vice versa.

I agree with pcstockton, surely it can't be cost prohibitive for Naim to produce a CD5i based DAC and CDX2 upwards based DACs. Surely the cost of adding cables and connectors would be offset by not rerquiring the cd playing mechanism.

We live in hope !

By the way has everyone heard a computer fed Beresford thru Naim applification, it sounds very impressive to my and many others ears, certianly up to the £1000 cdp bracket.

Dave,

Regarding a PC source, as well as the issue of "PC-side" of things in a PC/DAC combo, the extraction of the data from the usb is crucial. Just as important as the conversion itself. I agree wholeheartedly.

Although a "stock" PC/MAC is fine IMHO, as long as you have sufficient memory, and proc. 24/96 playback is demanding. Also disable anything unneeded and dedicate the PC to music playback/ripping/burning only. Go to Windows Classic 16 bit color, etc.....

I admit my M-Audio transit is not the best "convertor" out there, but it does allow for bit perfect 24/96 passthrough to Toslink. From there to the DAC. As mentioned, not ideal.

Ideal would be using something that converts the USB directly to I2S (or Spdif aes, also fine)with the support of a separate reclocker, super clock. Then to an external DAC.

This DAC, preferably a Naim DAC, would then perform the crucial conversion.

This approach of addressing the extraction of the PC data is crucial.

Especially regarding the HDX's USB input. I am curious by what means the data is converted. What kind and how many clocks are employed.

If things in the HDX are at the complete forefront of clocking/DACing, as you would find in Empirical Audio's USB products. I would start seeing the HDX in a completely different light.

At that point, it would be the same price point as the finest Convertor/Reclocker/DAC combinations in existence.

Without even using it's drive, software, HD etc.... it would be worth the outlay.

quote:

By the way has everyone heard a computer fed Beresford thru Naim applification, it sounds very impressive to my and many others ears, certianly up to the £1000 cdp bracket.

I'm not at all surprised. It reflects may own recent experience. I have been very impressed with my own computer audio. Since getting a Lavry DA10 the performance is up there with my CDS3, so I don't really get it when someone says they have not heard it sound good. But there we are.

It easily beats the CDX I had, so I think a lot depends on getting the settings right. So I well understand you being impressed. The truth is, computer audio is already capable of great results for nuts money. So the pressure is on the makers of CD players and it's good to see Naim going for it.

I don't share David's view that some exact rips are better than others, although it is what I'd expect to hear from people wanting to interest us in £4k devices. If there are measurable differences, that's different but as far as I can see (hear) lossless is lossless.

It's what happens to it during the DAC and output stages that would appear to represent the opportunity. Here, Naim have a problem as far as I can see. If the error free rips are given max opportunity - they should exceed the CD players, so I'm looking forward to hearing the HDX at Tom Tom tomorrow. But this may give rise to a problem with existing owners of top end CD players. So that leaves me wondering whether the DAC/output stages will be as good as they could be. We'll see.

Steve

quote:

But this may give rise to a problem with existing owners of top end CD players. So that leaves me wondering whether the DAC/output stages will be as good as they could be. We'll see.

Steve

Hopefully we will see many a CDX2s on the s/h market!!!!! And they will want to get rid of them quickly to fund the HDX purchase.

quote:

Originally posted by EmCee:
By the way has everyone heard a computer fed Beresford thru Naim applification....

I have!!! It is my ONLY source...

It sounds fantastic to me. But i have not heard a Naim CDP yet.

I A/B'd my Beresford and a nice Arcam CD37. The Arcam was using a RCA-to-DIN Chord Crimson, while the DAC used a pair of MIT RCA interconnects to a cheap RCA-to-DIN converter.

I had the EXACT same recording playing through the DAC, in FLAC format from Foobar, and the actual CD on the Arcam.
FYI, The recording was Naked City - Radio

I synched up the music to the exact same spot, and sat back with my remote from the listening position. I flipped back and forth on my 102 between the two inputs.

I listened to the album all the way through A/Bing as I went. Then I switched the interconnects and put the cheap adapter combo on the Arcam.

Again, all the way through.


I can say that the Arcam sounded a bit "warmer" then the Berseford, which was a bit clinical, in my first go through. But when the DAC recieved the Chord I/C, things flip flopped.

So, I did more listening with only using the Chord, and I was hard pressed to notice an audible difference. And they both sounded great. To get this performance from a sub $200 DAC is promising. It can only get better.

I am not suggesting that the Arcam nor the DAC approach a Naim CDP. Or even the HDX for that matter.

I was trying to find a fault in the Beresford and couldn't.

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:
At the moment I've not been impressed with any computer based audio

Interesting thread so far.

ROTF

I know that you have heard the Linn Akurate DS - have you heard the Klimax? This is why I copied your quote above.

I had the opportunity to sit in at three demos - one conducted by a Linn rep, the next one conducted by Mr. T himself, and the last at my dealer with just myself and another Naim owner in the room. During the last demonstration I had the opportunity to play both the Akurate and Klimax through the same system I have at home (552/300) and then directly A/B it against a CDS3/XPS2 (not quite the same as my 555PS version).

I think you need to take a listen to the Klimax if you think that computer based audio is not there yet. It is one seriously impressive piece of kit. At the end of the day I still preferred the CDS3 HOWEVER not for the reasons of an inadequacy in computer playback. All parties present agreed that the differences between the two units boiled down to the recognized differences between the Linn idea of music and the Naim idea. They were not due to computer audio vs. traditional playback - the Klimax was THAT impressive. I know of one individual who is rebuilding his system - he does not have a CD player and he does not want one. He wants to move forward - as such he is contemplating a Klimax (but wants to wait to hear the HDX).

If I did not already own a CD player, and went to demo a Klimax vs. CDS3, I would have no problem choosing either player - my decision would boil down to what I said above - which companies "sound" I preferred. I could easily live very happily with either unit. Oh - and ps - yes the Klimax is expensive - but so is the CDS3 - actually it is more expensive considering it needs a XPS2 to work.

I will be curious to hear the HDX when it becomes available for demo here in the States. I will say however, that at $10K and CDX2 level performance, I do find it to be expensive. If, by adding an external power supply (XPS2/555PS), it then can equal or exceed CDS3 performance (and at that point it would cost the same) this would be a different story. From what I have read so far it does not appear that it will reach those levels.

Regards
Gregg

quote:

ROTF

I know that you have heard the Linn Akurate DS - have you heard the Klimax?

Hi Gregg

Simple answer - no I haven't heard the Klimax. I'll look out for an opportunity.

Very interesting write-up, thanks.

ATB Rotf

You could try the same blind tests that one or two have tried here, ROTF. Three CDs of your choice synched with their own iTunes rip, A/B switched during playback through CDS3 and MacBook/DAC/AE.

Results have been interestingly consistent, people find it tough to choose and when pushed, select either option at different times. So no clear choice. Chin scratching usually follows.

Longer exposure to each, results in the same. To the point where you just settle down and enjoy whichever is playing.

Steve

Steve S1, in your opinion is the Lavry DA10 worth the extra £600 over the Beresford ?

Kind regards

EmCee

Hi,

I can't answer that question directly because I don't have a Beresford. But I can tell you that I prefer my Lavry to my Benchmark DAC1, which costs more.

Differences in DACs seem to be mainly presentational. I prefer the slightly warmer, more organic sound of the Lavry to the drier, more clinical DAC1. These are not huge differences.

Think expensive cartridges. Very often there is no difference in information retrieval, just the way it's presented will either suit your set-up or not.

Steve