Drunk & disorderly

Antisocial behaviour associated with alcohol is a product of our licensing restrictions. The only way to address the problem is at its root cause. We need to change our drinking mentality and the only way to achieve this is to extend the opening hours thus bringing us in line with the civilised world.

Imposing a time limit on having a drink (or forcing people into crowded noisy bars if they want to drink beyond 11pm) removes the appropriate social context for consuming alcohol, and reduces it to a base level of speedy intoxication for its own sake.

I'm certain that in the first few weeks leading up to Christmas there will be a few teething problems, but come after the New Year we will be wondering why we didn't change our illiberal and counterintuitive laws much sooner.

As for the police, they are just worried about how much overtime they are going to lose when peace does finally reign supreme on the streets of merry old (and repressed) England.

Years ago I lived in France where the law on not serving anyone clearly intoxicated was strictly enforced, but you could sit down in a bar and have a quiet chat over drinks till 4 am. The police were nowhere to be seen after 8pm as there was nothing for them to do. I was refused a drink (politely) on a couple of occasions because I'd been nodding off to sleep at the table. In the first couple of months I couldn't make it past midnight but I soon learnt to pace myself. I was 20 years old at the time.

If in doubt just ask the Aussies about the "six-o'clock swill."

quote:

just ask the Aussies about the "six-o'clock swill."

The six o'clock swill was introduced in Oz after WWI, apparently as a result of a drunken riot at an Army barracks. It ended in 1955, when pub trading hours were extended to 10pm. The swill was quite something in its day from all accounts.

Now the boozers hardly ever close. There was a recent law change in this state which requires pubs & clubs to close between 4am and 6am or somesuch to allow hypnotised poker machine players to grab a sandwich.

Odd how a minority seem to have the unique ability to change the law while the majority are completely ignored.

I'm sure many of us have become quite accidentally pissed as a fart and still behave just like the lambs we are when sober.

I don't really get your point Nime. When the Licensing act was originally passed in 2003 it had cross-bench support as well as being in the Labour party manifesto prior to 2001.

In the couple of years that have followed, the press have coined the term "binge drinking" and belated debates have ensued. Knee-jerk reactionaries have made the simplistic and fatuous link between extended hours of opening and more antisocial behaviour. Original debate that allowed the passing of the act in the first place resulted in agreement on all sides that extended hours would actually tackle the problem.

The only opposing argument at that time was this non-sequitur one of "local residents" being deprived of sleep while others enjoyed themselves. The reality is that nearby sleeping residents often get woken up to the noise of a busy pub prematurely ejecting all of its clients at once.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Toy:
I don't really get your point Nime. When the Licensing act was originally passed in 2003 it had cross-bench support as well as being in the Labour party manifesto prior to 2001.
The only opposing argument at that time was this non-sequitur one of "local residents" being deprived of sleep while others enjoyed themselves. The reality is that nearby sleeping residents often get woken up to the noise of a busy pub prematurely ejecting all of its clients at once.

I read Nime's post to mean that of the millions of "sensible" drinkers or at least, the ones who get pissed and are still pleasant, friendly people are the majority.
However, the minority; who become violent obnoxious idiots seem to be the ones who affect the law....

I agree. Thus we can have more liberal licensing hours and yet come down hard on those who become drunk and disorderly, without there being any notion of contradiction then, can't we?

I work in the booze industry and I can assure everyone that most so-called binge drinking is actually a result of off-licence sales. People get themselves heartily tanked up on stuff from the offie/supermarket before (and often after, and sometimes during) going out.

Opening hours affects this aspect very little. It is odd how this has come to be such an unpopular move amongst people. I remember when the media were constantly taking the rise because we had Sunday afternoon closing (total off-licence closing on Sundays in Scotland). This was seen and described as dark-ages, rationing, backwards. It was a standing joke in "Spitting Image" I seem to recall.

Getting drunk quickly is worse for the body, and society, than getting drunk slowly. But it is still getting drunk. The same people will - I suspect - get bladdered neither more nor less after the licencing hours become less restricted than they did beforehand.

It's a storm in a shot-glass.

Now, where's the corkscrew?

quote:

As for the police, they are just worried about how much overtime they are going to lose when peace does finally reign supreme on the streets of merry old (and repressed) England.

I'm also worried about the number of officers that are going to be injured on the run up to Xmas.

Drinking is like taking a drug. It is! You make your decision on how much medication you take, knowing that sooner or later it will have a bad effect on your body, but you like the intial feeling of relaxation and reduction of inhibitions it gives you!

The vast majority of punters are humerous and happy when drunk - others are foul mouthed, abusive, and sometimes very very violent ot the nearest to them, whether that be loved ones or complete strangers.

The altering of licencing hours removes another excuse of 'I had to cram it all in in such a short space of time!'

But hey, what do I know

I suppose the same time restrictions could be applied to drinks cabinets and fridges through the use of timelocks then. Or the front door lock would automatically engage if a switch detected a drink being removed from a shelf in a fridge or cabinet.

You miss the point - I'm not sure if you do or not, steve. The extension in licencing hours means its up to those pubs and theire owners etc when they want to open. They still have to apply for a justices licence etc.

The point is you'll be able to go drink in the pub when you like, provided they decide to open.

quote:

Originally posted by blythe:

I read Nime's post to mean that of the millions of "sensible" drinkers or at least, the ones who get pissed and are still pleasant, friendly people are the majority.
However, the minority; who become violent obnoxious idiots seem to be the ones who affect the law....

Perfect! Thankyou.

One wonders why there isn't a harmless way of disabling a drunken yob as part of the police arsenal. Firing an artificial form of sticky spiders web from a distance would seem promising. Stick the buggers to a lampost and leave them to sober up.

I & three friends came out of a Peter Gabriel concert last year at the NIA Birmingham.

We had to wait nearly an hour in a que to get OUT of a car park.

We all fancied a cup of coffee or a glass of beer & a sandwich.

Absolutely NO chance.

This is in the centre of Birmingham for heavens sake at 11 o'clock in the evening. Anywhere else in Europe & we could have gone to any cafe for this.

Our rules are an utter joke, & consequently a culture has grown up around what we do have now.

It will take a good while to put it all right.

So now we can consume alcohole for 24 hours. how about some classy 24 hour cafe's??

quote:

The point is you'll be able to go drink in the pub when you like, provided they decide to open.

Let market forces determine when pubs and cafés open and close.

As funny as i mean, and i know it's wrong.(but),
I sure am gonna miss those lock inns!

regrds,

Stephen,

Trust me, but somethings will never change. Just go live in the district of an illiberal nanny council like mine, a council that listens to "residents" who live a mile from the nearest pub and licensees who are happy with any restrictions as long as the playing field is level, but not the drinkers who have presumed complacently that things will automatically be better for them after the 24th.

In fact, in some locations things will be considerably worse because 11pm remains the closing time for many pubs in our district with no drinking-up time.

On my patch the lock-ins till 3 am will be alive and well unless the council employs stooges...

Perhaps people could pace more if they weren't being done up the arse for soft drinks in pubs, its a screw.

I took wifey out I had a pint, as she is pregnant she had a J20, pint £2.40 J20 £2.10

Its any wonder people get pissed before hitting the town.

Too many people drink too much, it really is as simple as that.

quote:

Originally posted by FISBEY:
Too many people drink too much, it really is as simple as that.

People in england complain to much!
Did you know that we are second behind portigual for being the most miserible people in europe. It's about time things changed!

regards,

hi,
i think people in england complain to much!
Did you know that we are the second most miserable people in europe, with portugal being the first. Anybody truly having fun is totally struck down as being to happy ,noisey,drunk,honest,hard working,rich,clever,entertaining,showy,perfect,cheap, you name it we are surrounded by victor meldrews who have nothing better else to do than complain!
most people in this country need to live in the real world as far as i am concerned.
even father christmas is on borrowed time.

regards,

The complainers succeed always in preventing the enjoyment of others. Whenever there is a new proposed development in any given local area, it's always a case of crossed fingers hoping no whinging bastard is going to object for its own sake.

Local councillors feel compelled to act upon those who lodge official complaints - justified or not, for a quiet life. Whatever powers they may hold, the one of saying,

"Fuck off you sad, whinging old bastard!" is never a viable option.

The tennis club next to my house (with extensive grounds and appropriate screening around it) has recently applied for an extension to its social club premises. Much of the extension will be afforded to more cellar space so they can stock real ale. The extension will affect none of the nearby residents including myself whatsoever.

However, I was surprised to receive a letter from the council inviting me to object to such an extension. My (non)response was - absolutely not, bring it on! But I can see how many residents in my position would complain simply because they were invited to do so.

I admit that I am a member of this club, but so what if I wasn't?

Thankyou Steve. That explains everything.

quote:

Originally posted by rodwsmith:
I work in the booze industry and I can assure everyone that most so-called binge drinking is actually a result of off-licence sales. People get themselves heartily tanked up on stuff from the offie/supermarket before (and often after, and sometimes during) going out.

Rod,

you're going to have to back that up with some solid figures before I'll believe that statement.

cheers, Martin

Sometimes experience is more than a match for figures.

Muy own experience as a taxi driver is that those intent on getting pissed during the course of an evening start in the home before they go out. I haven't recorded the exact number but frequently I have to wait for customers at home addresses to finish drinking from bottles and/or extinguish cigarettes before they get in the car.

The reasoning behind our repressive licensing hours was never to control consumption, it was about residents needing to sleep. We have a curfew mentality in England where empty vessels are kept awake at night imagining that someone somewhere may be enjoying themselves chatting in a public bar over a few drinks.

That's two "empty vessels" in one week Steve.

Freudian slip? Or are you getting typecast?

If you were a taxi driver in Denmark you'd have to carry a removable rear bicycle rack. You could hang the drunks out on that. Charge extra for a swift sobering up! Charge even more if they were into S&M.

quote:

Originally posted by Martin Payne:
you're going to have to back that up with some solid figures before I'll believe that statement.

cheers, Martin

I can add concrete figures when I get into work if you like, although perhaps I should have said "much" rather than "most" as it is hard to quantify. I believe I am right however.

The stat I can give you from memory on a bright Sunday morning, is that 68% of all alcohol sold in the UK is from off-licenced premises (the figure is 78% for wine in isloation, which is my part of the business). This is a statistic from AC Nielsen, the company that does the most analysis on drink. Binge drinking would need to be severely out of proportion to drinking as a whole to buck this trend, and if anything it creates the situation.

Add to this the knowledge that most so-called "binge-drinking" which incidentally most of us used to call a "session" or indeed "party" and is far from being anything new ... is committed/performed by young and therefore not especially well-heeled people (a bottle of alcopop in a nightclub will cost four or five times what it does in Aldi...) and I hope you can begin to believe me (although as Steve commented it is experience and anecdotal "evidence" more than anything else)

12 litres of Stella in Tesco - £9.99
(24 x 500ml cans)
12 litres of Stella in average London pub - £59.18
(21.1 x pints @ circa £2.80 each)

If you were a committed binge drinker Martin, what would you do?

Now, time for my morning sherry I think!

Santé

Rod